Police have the bombers

[lancelot]

According to the latest news reports the police have caught a number of terror suspects.

If they are the correct suspects, Bravo to the Police Force!

What now I wonder? What kind of conviction can they expect?

Put them up for treason and execute the cowards!

[Red Harvest]

What sort of penalties are applicable under UK law? If any are capital, then will extradition of the one in Italy be complicated?

[King Ragnar]

With the pathetic law system in Britian, they will be locked up for a few years and be back on our streets in no time, i seriously dont know why we dont have the death penalty i this country, because i would lynch all them imediatley.

[BDC]

Long time in prison.

[Marcellus]

Put them up for treason and execute the cowards!

The death penalty was abolished completely by the Human Rights Act 1998 in the UK. I imagine they'll go to prison for quite a while, though.

[Adrian II]

Long time in prison.

Hopefully life sentences, provided the gentlemen in question are found guilty after a fair trial.

Personally I feel that the perpetrators of such acts, intent on causing widespread fear, disturbing the peaceful existence of many thousands and threatening the crucial institutions of democratic society should, in return, be given exemplary punishments themselves.

Does British law have such a provision for acts of terrorism, similar to the one introduced in The Netherlands (and recently applied, for the first time, to Theo van Gogh's murderer)?

[Marcellus]

Personally I feel that the perpetrators of such acts, intent on causing widespread fear, disturbing the peaceful existence of many thousands and threatening the crucial institutions of democratic society should, in return, be given exemplary punishments themselves.

Does British law have such a provision for acts of terrorism, similar to the one introduced in The Netherlands (and recently applied, for the first time, to Theo van Gogh's murderer)?

What sort of 'exemplary punishment' did you have in mind?

[Dâriûsh]

If they are indeed the bombers then this is truly good news.

[Adrian II]

What sort of 'exemplary punishment' did you have in mind?

No parole, but real life sentences spent in isolation cells (only for those convicted after fair a trial obviously, no Gitmo's on Dutch soil if you please). That's the rule we're trying to establish in The Netherlands with regard to terrorists. It's a slow process and judicial views tend to change over the years and decades. We've had our share of major terrorist incidents in the 1970's, but it's only now that these acts are considered a category of their own.

[Kagemusha]

Its nice to hear good nows.It seems that Britains police forces are putting lots of effort on hunting those bastards down.I hope they got right men.Wasnt there a one arrest at Italy too?

[Marcellus]

Wasnt there a one arrest at Italy too?

Yes, the fourth attempted bomber, Hussain Osman has been arrested in Rome.

Italy says it has arrested the fourth man wanted in the UK over the failed attacks in London on 21 July.
Italian Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu said Hussain Osman - a Somali-born British citizen - was seized in Rome.

His brother has also been detained for questioning in Rome.

UK police said Hussain Osman was of "interest" to the investigation into the failed attacks but did not confirm he was one of the suspected bombers.

They said they would be seeking his return to the UK.

Armed police in London have also made a number of arrests, including a man wanted for the failed attack on a bus.

AdrianII - I looked on the internet but I'm afraid I couldn't find anything specific. I would have thought that a convicted terrorist could be sentenced to life in jail. As for isolation cells, I don't know, I suspect not.

[Kagemusha]

It would be nice if we could just put these guys to soletary cells and throw away the key.They would have rest of their lives to think about what they have done.They would remain in their cells well fed ofcourse,because we are civilized arent we?There they would remain,only visited by ghosts of those whom they have killed.

[Adrian II]

Yes, the fourth attempted bomber, Hussain Osman has been arrested in Rome.

Sounds good. If they really have their man, that is.

I would have thought that a convicted terrorist could be sentenced to life in jail. As for isolation cells, I don't know, I suspect not.

I'm not sure about the need for isolation myself. It is particularly harsh on the individual, but then all punishment is harsh on the culprit and we are talking about a particularly evil crime. On the other hand, what's the use of condemning a person to waste away till either madness or death set in? If it is necessary to stop these people operating out of their prison cells, then I'm all for isolation in the interest of public safety, at least until there is no more clear and present danger. But they should never be allowed to return to society. That's asking too much.

[Marcellus]

Sounds good. If they really have their man, that is.I'm not sure about the need for isolation myself. It is particularly harsh on the individual, but then all punishment is harsh on the culprit and we are talking about a particularly evil crime. On the other hand, what's the use of condemning a person to waste away till either madness or death set in? If it is necessary to stop these people operating out of their prison cells, then I'm all for isolation in the interest of public safety, at least until there is no more clear and present danger. But they should never be allowed to return to society. That's asking too much.

I agree. Isolation is, IMO, unnecessary and cruel, unless it can be shown that it is actually necessary for public security. As for never returning to society, I'm not so sure. I think that if they no longer present a harm to society, then there is no reason to hold them in prison when they have served a long jail term. Remember that a great majority of terrorists are young men with confused minds. After twenty-odd years of jail, thinking about what they did, these people may have gained a better insight into life. And if they haven't then they stay in jail.

[Kagemusha]

You are good and kind men Adrian II and Marcellus,better then me.I think certain crimes just cant be forgiven.Many stone age societys didnt ever punish the worst criminals physically.They kept funerals for them and ignored them permanently after that.I think we should punish our werst criminals the sameway by locking them up and throwing the key away.

[Adrian II]

Remember that a great majority of terrorists are young men with confused minds. After twenty-odd years of jail, thinking about what they did, these people may have gained a better insight into life. And if they haven't then they stay in jail.

That is true, and it is one more reason why I hesitate. I'm not of the reductionist school that says punishment should be mere retribution (in which case a summary execution would fit this sort of crime). Punishment should be the civilised response of the state to crime, and sentences should above all reflect the public interest.

I think it is in the public interest that these perpetrators are locked away, in principle for life, unless, at some future stage, their rehabiliation may serve a higher purpose. This has clearly been the case with certain IRA convicts and with former members of the German Rote Armee Fraktion of 1970's renown.

Mind you, I'm not talking about mere 'good behaviour' as in: don't crap on your bunk or insult prison staff. The reintegration of former German terrorists into society, indeed after many years and after they had delivered ample proof of their improved insight into society and into their own crimes, has served the process of closure after some very deep wounds had been struck in German society. One former terrorist even wrote a political theater piece about it, which proved a huge success. It would be insane to call that a belated 'reward' for his terrorist career, as some on the Right did - it was clearly a 'reward' for his newly-won insights as well as a distinct contribution to German society. He was literally making up for his mkistakes as best he could. As you said, most of these guys are young and confused, but some are also brilliant minds. If it takes them twnty years in prison to learn to put those minds to work on something better than murder and mayhem, their sentence will have served a purpose and they might become belated role models like the German guy.

Ser Clegane, please help me- what's the German fellow's name?

[Marcellus]

That is true, and it is one more reason why I hesitate. I'm not of the reductionist school that says punishment should be mere retribution (in which case a summary execution would fit this sort of crime). Punishment should be the civilised response of the state to crime, and sentences should above all reflect the public interest.

I think it is in the public interest that these perpetrators are locked away, in principle for life, unless, at some future stage, their rehabiliation may serve a higher purpose. This has clearly been the case with certain IRA convicts and with former members of the German Rote Armee Fraktion of 1970's renown.

Mind you, I'm not talking about mere 'good behaviour' as in: don't crap on your bunk or insult prison staff. The reintegration of former German terrorists into society, indeed after many years and after they had delivered ample proof of their improved insight into society and into their own crimes, has served the process of closure after some very deep wounds had been struck in German society. One former terrorist even wrote a political theater piece about it, which proved a huge success. It would be insane to call that a belated 'reward' for his terrorist career, as some on the Right did - it was clearly a 'reward' for his newly-won insights as well as a distinct contribution to German society. He was literally making up for his mkistakes as best he could. As you said, most of these guys are young and confused, but some are also brilliant minds. If it takes them twnty years in prison to learn to put those minds to work on something better than murder and mayhem, their sentence will have served a purpose and they might become belated role models like the German guy.

Ser Clegane, please help me- what's the German fellow's name?

I think that you have pretty much summed up my position here: release when they have clearly changed their outlook on life, and not just because of 'good behaviour', so that they can start to contribute to society.

You are good and kind men Adrian II and Marcellus

Why thank you!

I think certain crimes just cant be forgiven.

After years of thinking about what they have done, some terrorists may truly be sorry. And at this point imprisonment is not there to protect society, simply to vindictively punish someone for a mistake they made earlier on in their life. It is better for both the person and society for the person to be released so that they can usefully contribute to society.

[Adrian II]

You are good and kind men Adrian II and Marcellus,better then me.

I appreciate the compliment, but I can't help feeling it is undeserved. A lifelong prison sentence is about as bad as the death penalty, even worse according to more than a few people.

This is not a matter of kindness versus cruelty. The question is whether you want to be tough on crime as well as on criminals. One argument against the death penalty in terrorist cases is that it makes martyrs out of young people who may well gain new insights and come to abhor their crimes later in (prison) life, thus setting an entirely different and much better example to potential sympathisers.

[Kagemusha]

Im against death penalty.But my reason isnt very noble one.Its not good penalty because after you have executed someone,you cant bring him or her back if the person later is proved innocent.
I dont know if im pessimist, but i dont think all individuals can be rehabilitated back to society.I think lesser criminals can be made to see their mistakes.But in my mind willing multiple murderes however misleaded by others have lost their humanity and cant be forgiven.I know many others have wider sense of forgivnes,but i dont.
How ever if its combat situation,if enemies wont surrender they will be killed.Thats lot more simple.If they surrender they should be triald according to international law.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ser Clegane, please help me- what's the German fellow's name?

The name of that German extreme left-wing terrorist who turned into a model citizen?


Joschka Fischer

[Adrian II]

The name of that German extreme left-wing terrorist who turned into a model citizen?

Joschka Fischer

Yeah yeah, we all know he fought the police, and so did everybody else at the age of 21. He didn't throw bombs or pull a gun on anybody.

Anyway, he wears a tie these days. Case closed.

[Steppe Merc]

Ties... scary things.

Um, well if these are the right guys, then that's good, and they should be put in jail after a fair, public trial for the rest of their natrual lives.

[Adrian II]

I dont know if im pessimist, but i dont think all individuals can be rehabilitated back to society.

Neither do I. I believe therapy and social training are overrated as a means toward rehabilitation and it is mostly down to the inner moral resources of the convict. In most cases it's a question of wait and see, but the possibility should never be excluded.

I think lesser criminals can be made to see their mistakes.

In some cases they can't because they are either too dysfunctional or too immoral to 'get it'.

I believe some criminals commit 'only' minor crimes simply because they lack the physical courage, working intelligence and/or opportunity to commit more serious crimes. In other circumstances they certainly would. If you don't understand what category I mean, I'm talking about your ideal cannonfodder in times of war. These people thrive in settings with clear rules, recognisable authority figures and simple tasks. On your street corner they turn into criminals, on the battlefield they make sergeant -- if they survive.

[Kagemusha]

I agree that army would be good place for many petty criminals.Good idea.

[Red Harvest]

I agree that army would be good place for many petty criminals.Good idea.

I don't think your average soldier would be too excited about having car thieves and shoplifters conscripted into his squad. Nor would the commanders... That would cripple the military rather quickly.

"Yes...this is Capt. Jones, of Charlie Company."

"I need to report a stolen Humvee, and it seems we have one man missing, AWOL."

[Kagemusha]

I don't think your average soldier would be too excited about having car thieves and shoplifters conscripted into his squad. Nor would the commanders... That would cripple the military rather quickly.

"Yes...this is Capt. Jones, of Charlie Company."

"I need to report a stolen Humvee, and it seems we have one man missing, AWOL."

Many countries have used Punishment units.Ofcourse a professional army isnt best suited.I would prefer a boot camp over juvinail prison.It would teach them some dicipline.

[bmolsson]

So the British police manage to arrest them alive ??

Note: Only some sarcasm intended.....

[Ja'chyra]

So the British police manage to arrest them alive ??

Uncalled for I think

As for their punishment, life without parole and in isolation. You may think it's cruel and unnecessary Marcellus but so is blowing people up on the underground. Saying that after 20 years in jail they are truly sorry about what they did isn't enough, jail isn't all about showing them the error of their ways, it's about punishment and deterrent as well.

I think the punishment should fit the crime and rehabilitation is fine for some like thieves and pickpockets etc but some criminals don't deserve to let back into the community, terrorists are one of them.

[bmolsson]

Uncalled for I think

Yes, you are right... I am sorry....

[Ja'chyra]

Yes, you are right... I am sorry....