Are we really all that dumb

**Louis VI the Fat** · 08-02-2005, 19:16

I don't feel the need to vote anonymously. I voted:
"I'm not American and I think Americans are more ignorant"

Along with just about everybody else, with that I mean a lack of knowledge of other countries, of an awareness of the world and not IQ.

More importantly, to be exact, I think the uneducated masses in the US are more ignorant than the uneducated masses in Europe.
I don't think at all that there is a difference in ignorance between the higher educated in Europe and the US. That's an important refinement.

Those with higher education on both sides of the Atlantic all know who wrote Moby Dick, can point out Argentina on a map and know who Michelangelo was.

It's just that there seem to be such an awful lot of hicks, of people completely and utterly ignorant of the outside world in America. They make up entire villages. You can travel for hundreds of miles through countless counties in America without meeting just a single educated person. In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's and Belgium.

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-02-2005, 19:21

Those with higher education on both sides of the Atlantic all know who wrote Moby Dick, can point out Argentina on a map and know who Michelangelo was.

Those on both sides who are over 50 can do all that higher education or not. I find you eurpoeans arrogance uterly amazing here. You claim to know more about the world but in reality all you know more about is europe. Yes you know about more countries because their in your backyard. You think you know about the US but in reality most of you are clueless on the matter.

**Don Corleone** · 08-02-2005, 19:28

Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Those on both sides who are over 50 can do all that higher education or not. I find you eurpoeans arrogance uterly amazing here. You claim to know more about the world but in reality all you know more about is europe. Yes you know about more countries because their in your backyard. You think you know about the US but in reality most of you are clueless on the matter.

Hey, hey, hey. No need to get defensive. Regardless of whether they're correct or not, there's a perception we're trying to deal with here, and getting sore over it isn't going to do anything to alleviate that. I don't think they're being snobs. I think they think they have a handle on truth. They may even be right. At the very least, they're being honest, and we're trying to encourage that.

For all I know the average unwashed mass in Germany might be more informed than the average unwashed mass in Oklahoma. Again, I do want to point out that my poll question was about total acquired knowledge, not knowledge of other cultures. The point is, either 1) Europeans really are more informed (on a variety of issues) than Americans or 2) they're ignorant themselves in terms of their relative level of information.

Again, my point with this thread & poll was to start a dialogue, and to highlight a few of the Us vs. Them undercurrents that go on around here. Until you can see them, it's very hard to understand them. I think Americans in the Backroom view the Europeans as smug (very broad brush here) and the Europeans tend to view the Americans as thin skinned and uninformed (on a variety of issues) (and again, painting with a very broad brush).

Getting sore and saying 'Aha! you're all a bunch of arrogant curs' isn't going to change anything.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 08-02-2005, 20:10

No need to get defensive. I'm talking about the unwashed masses. My point is after all that the educated part, by which I mean some 50% of the population, on either side of the Atlantic is no more ignorant than the other. There's no difference in ignorance between educated Americans and Europeans.
Of course there's no difference between what historians on either side know. They read the same books and articles.

The unwashed masses in America do seem to be more ignorant than their European counterpart in my perception. I have a feeling that the working class poor in Europe read more newspapers, more informative books and watch more news than in America. They seem less anti-intellectualistic overall, less superstitious, less averse to 'high culture'. But I'd be very interested in some links or figure's. Anyone found any yet?

Anyway, if I wanted to be snobbish, I would've talked about the educated half. But alas, the truth stands in the way and nobody can call educated Americans ignorant.

And one does not take intellectual delight of course in how many of one's uneducated half can spell, say, 'potato' correctly...

**Louis VI the Fat** · 08-02-2005, 20:12

Sorry, I can't help ending my posts with a little provocation.

*Will try and work on that*

**Don Corleone** · 08-02-2005, 19:22

I appreciate your honesty Louis. And I swear, I'm not being defensive or setting you up.... how much time have you spent over here? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

By the way, there's a certain amount of provinicalism here in the United States that mimics this phenomenon. If you asked people from Massachussets about people from Alabama, you'd get similar results, even though the vast majority of people in Massachussets haven't met somebody from Alabama, let alone visited there (or perish the thought, spent enough time there to learn the culture first hand).

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-02-2005, 19:24

By the way, there's a certain amount of provinicalism here in the United States that mimics this phenomenon. If you asked people from Massachussets about people from Alabama, you'd get similar results, even though the vast majority of people in Massachussets haven't met somebody from Alabama, let alone visited there (or perish the thought, spent enough time there to learn the culture first hand).

Yup and the term damn yankee is still popular in the south and many notherners still look upon the south as hicks. Californians think they are the most proggrsesive and us New Yorkers think we are the shite.

**PanzerJaeger** · 08-02-2005, 19:33

Some of the absolute stupidity some of my German friends hit me with about the US amazes me. 2 of them think Bush and Israel planned 9/11 to fulfill some sort of holy zionist crusade against arabs.. and these people got better grades than I did in school..

The way I see it, European media leads Europeans to feel they are the most informed people on the planet when in reality a lot of them are being taken for a ride.

The difference between America and Europe is that Cledus over here doesnt pretend to know anything about anything outside of lower alabama but Hans in europe is lead to believe he's informed about other parts of the world.

Most Americans dont know much about the rest of the world and most Europeans dont know much about places outside of Europe.

**Don Corleone** · 08-02-2005, 19:38

By the way, I want to congratulate everyone, on all sides of this issue, especially Kaiser. I was really hesitant to light this powder keg off, but thus far, you've all been doing a fantastic job at having a frank discussion about a sensitive topic.

I think there is hope for the Backroom, and we can move beyond the Crypts & the Bloods attitude we've had in here lately, we just need to move out of our traditional topic base and find things to discuss that move us out of our pre-defined knowledge base of assumptions.

PJ, I think the term 'stupidity' is a bit harsh, especially since you're talking about a matter of faith, not knowledge, but the rest of your post actually put it into context.

**Sasaki Kojiro** · 08-02-2005, 19:40

Some people have a weird definition of uninformed.

"lack of knowledge of other countries"?

I don't need to know who the prime minister of canada is any more than I need to know the atomic weight of Einsteinium. Knowing what you need to know makes you informed.

Almost amusing

**Louis VI the Fat** · 08-02-2005, 23:56

It was a joke, Gertgregoor.

Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat

You can travel for hundreds of miles through countless counties in America without meeting just a single educated person. In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's. And Belgium.

Just a mean and totally uncalled for punch below the belt aimed at Wallonia (French Belgium, whatever it's called in English).

See, I have this genetically-based urge to make wisecracks about them whenever the opportunity arises. Like you Flemish have with the Dutch and vice-versa.

Can't be helped, can it?