Are we really all that dumb

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This discussion has degenerated into mindless drivell.

I have to agree with BP here. At least it did as soon as he arrived.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We don't seem to have a clear definition of 'ignorance'.
To me, a highly intelligent or even highly educated person can still be ignorant. Education levels especially can be measured easily - see Prole's link.

But it's about more than that. It's also about more than being aware of what happens outside one's countries borders.

A bit late perhaps, but what would be a good definition of the ignorance - or lack thereoff - we are talking about here?

[Don Corleone]

Well, that's a fair point Louis. I guess I'd begin by asking does an intimate knowledge of current events outside one's own country make one 'informed' and a lack thereof make one 'uninformed'? Are some areas of the world more important to know about than others?

But in general, I'd say I'm looking for how closely do relative groups of people approach the goal of the 'renaissance man'. This thread has focused mostly on current events, but when it hasn't, technology/ math&science knowledge have been tossed about. What about history, both one's own and external to one's country? Literature? Art? Medicine?

And I'm not talking about the contributions of the USA or Europe, but what does the average American or average European know about these topics?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But it's about more than that. It's also about more than being aware of what happens outside one's countries borders.

Again your comoparing apples to oranges here. Our borders are much larger than yours. We know more about whats happening between our states borders than you do. Its all relative. You know more of whats happening in say sweden but I know more of whats happening in Texas lets say. The fact that you have "nations" while we have states dosent make you more knowledgeble on the world but on your corner of it the same as we.

[Proletariat]

West Virginia?

*spits violently at the ground* Non!



And to hell with Les Vosges, too.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

West Virginia?

Is that the unwashed masses hes talking about? No wonder he has such a poor opinion of the US Remember Virginia is for lovers. While West Virginia is for cousins.

[Byzantine Prince]

What exactly is your issue with the thread BP? I see people on different sides expressing their views honestly, and then you arriving on the scene to declare it all to be mindless drivel. Would you do us the courtesy of explaining why, oh great wise one? Your humble subjects have little insight into the workings of your great & mysterious mind...

Does it really need explaining? *sigh*

The very concept "Are we really that dumb" is dumb. Who is dumb? Saying Americans are dumb is about as insightful as saying Chinese are smart, Canadians are mounties, New Zealanders are sheepshagers. It's pretty much the same worthless argument.

I posted something similar to this before in this thread but nobody bothered to read it or even care. They rather go on and on "well europeans are not better, and blah blah blah...". That's why it should be closed.

[Samurai Waki]

Generally speaking, I can have a conversation with a British Person about something like tax-reformation/Economics just fine, when I have a conversation with most other Americans it involves Alcohol/Woman/Cars, this isn't to say we aren't dumber than Europeans we just have different priorities

[Moros]

In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's and Belgium.

you got to be kidding, belgium is the except for the Netherlands the most crowded(couldn't find the correct word, about 315 (not sure) people /1km²) country .

ow I've found test results from the late nintys wich haves some pics but they are in dutch but since it's a word doc I can't post the links. but I'll give you some exact numbers and I'll post the link (you'll have to download it and understand dutch). note: these numbers are somewhat different then that of the test I was previously talking about.

link: http://www.ond.vlaanderen.be/onderwi...publicatie.doc

some things wich I noticed:
1)Japan and Korea have verry good results and might be the 2 best (with japan as the number 1). They were the best at maths and sience but they weren't that good with laguage (the test didn't include foreign languages.)
2)We have no reliable number of the Netherland because not enough schools participated with the test.
3) VS is about the same as the average country ( example they beated: Germany, Greece, portugal, Italy )
4)southren European countrys had less grades as more northren.
5)Mexico and Brasil had much lower grades then the other countrys.
6) Canada beaten Amarica big time!

numbers: avarage: avarage: avarage:
country: Language Maths Sience

Amarican countrys:
Canada 534 points(2nd) 533 points 529 points
VS 504 points 493 points 499 points
Mexico 422 p 387 p 422 p
Brasil(lowest!) 396 p 334 p 375 p

Northren European countrys:

Finland 546 p (highest!) 536 p 538 p
UK 523 p 529 p 499 p
Sweden 516 p 510 p 512 p
Ireland(sp?) 527 p 503 p 513 p
Noreland(sp?) 505 p 499 p 500 p
France 505 p 517 p 500 p
Flanders (me:D) 532 p 543 p 519 p
Danish 497 p 514 p 481 p

Southren European Countrys:

Austria 507 p 515 p 519 p
Italy 487 p 457 p 478 p
Spain 493 p 476 p 491 p
Swiss 494 p 529 p 496 p
Greece 474 p 447 p 461 p

Chech Rep.: 492 p 498 p 511 p

Asian:
Japan 522 p 557 p (first) 550 p (2nd)
S. Korea 525 p 547 p (2nd) 552 p (first)

Other:
Australia 528 p 533 p 528 p
New-sealand (sp?) 529 p 537 p 528 p

These are not all the countrys (but most of them) who participated but I've got to quit know. I'll post the other country's tomorrow if someones interested.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have no idea about how intelligent most people in the US or Europe are, but here in Vermont there are a lot of idiots. It is altogether possible that the idiot density here is average though as there are a lot of intelligent and fairly average people here as well.

[kiwitt]

I saw a chart once where the states with the higher than average IQ voted for Kerry and the states with the lower IQ voted for Bush. Here is one Link I found.

[Azi Tohak]

Duh hyuck! Maybe that is why a yokel loike I vooted for Prezdnt Dubya.

This IQ data is based on SAT/ACT test scores

And how exactly is this calculated?

I am glad that so many people are so interested in IQ, statistical correlations, and their relation to politics. I believe such correlations are increasingly interesting as some candidates this year funneled more money into biased advertising and partisan propaganda than has ever been attempted in the history of the world.

Yup. Smearing sure did work out well for the Democrats didn't it?

Azi

[Louis VI the Fat]

It was a joke, Gertgregoor.

You can travel for hundreds of miles through countless counties in America without meeting just a single educated person. In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's. And Belgium.

Just a mean and totally uncalled for punch below the belt aimed at Wallonia (French Belgium, whatever it's called in English).

See, I have this genetically-based urge to make wisecracks about them whenever the opportunity arises. Like you Flemish have with the Dutch and vice-versa.

Can't be helped, can it?

[Xiahou]

I saw a chart once where the states with the higher than average IQ voted for Kerry and the states with the lower IQ voted for Bush. Here is one Link I found.

It's interesting that people still put this forward- it's a total hoax and even snopes.com has it listed as a false urban legend. All it really takes to debunk this though is some common sense- for a state to have an 85 average, an absurdly large segment of the population would need to be mentally retarded.

I won't comment further on what it would say about the intelligence of people who'd believe something so ridiculous.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's interesting that people still put this forward- it's a total hoax and even snopes.com has it listed as a false urban legend. All it really takes to debunk this though is some common sense- for a state to have an 85 average, an absurdly large segment of the population would need to be mentally retarded.

I won't comment further on what it would say about the intelligence of people who'd believe something so ridiculous.

Would it say that they are the ignorant, unwashed masses of America?

[kiwitt]

Thanks for that Xiahou.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Is that the unwashed masses hes talking about? No wonder he has such a poor opinion of the US Remember Virginia is for lovers. While West Virginia is for cousins.

My Gramps is an Irishman from West Virginia, and he married a 1st Generation New Jersian of Austrian Decent (Irish-German pride!), so that statement is not totally true lol!.
Though, the Virginias are a beutiful state (yes I still consider them one state dammit! I hate the US Civil War for that! ).

[Divinus Arma]

Does it really need explaining? *sigh*

The very concept "Are we really that dumb" is dumb. Who is dumb? Saying Americans are dumb is about as insightful as saying Chinese are smart, Canadians are mounties, New Zealanders are sheepshagers. It's pretty much the same worthless argument.

I posted something similar to this before in this thread but nobody bothered to read it or even care. They rather go on and on "well europeans are not better, and blah blah blah...". That's why it should be closed.

I just answered the poll on your behavior. I picked "behavior is deteriorating and BP should be banned right now. YES RIGHT NOW!"


I personally think this has been a stimulating, interesting, and appropriate topic. The various sides have been discussed with dignity and respect for the most part. Except for BP. Who should be banned. Yes. right now.

[Divinus Arma]

I think it would be interesting to find out the required level of world history education for both America and Europe.

America, for example, requires formal instruction on world history through to American Independance. From there, the focus is on America, but events outside the states that relate to America or are massive in scale are also taught.

I'd becasue curious to know how much foriegn countries teach their citizens of America's history and it's role in world peace and stability throughout history. I would also be interested in how this information is presented, especially so in Germany, France, and England.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

Simple. I'm not even going to bother reading the thread but I am an American and I believe as a nation we are more ignorant. We're behind Madagascar in academics (32nd or 33rd). Land of opportunity, save education.

[Franconicus]

I think it would be interesting to find out the required level of world history education for both America and Europe.

America, for example, requires formal instruction on world history through to American Independance. From there, the focus is on America, but events outside the states that relate to America or are massive in scale are also taught.

I'd becasue curious to know how much foriegn countries teach their citizens of America's history and it's role in world peace and stability throughout history. I would also be interested in how this information is presented, especially so in Germany, France, and England.

Divinius, the American history is teached at German schools - not only in the history lessons. Every German kid has to learn English (starts at their 3rd year). And there they learn a lot about American history and society.
However, the interpretation moght be different

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

I believe American schools should require World History early on (2nd or 3rd grade) starting with Classical History. We live in a democratic republic but American students rarely even touch where this government stemed from or what it means.

Besides, I am here at the Org so I am a world history buff myself. Living in Wisconsin (mainly settled by those of German and Scandinavian heritage) should have the option of learning their founders' languages.

[Productivity]

Americans know less languages that's for sure,

Actually I created a poll here about this a while ago. While Americans did know less, they certainly were not monolingual for the most.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44738

EDIT: In finding this I sorted by thread starter. Does anyone have any idea how many threads devatstatin dave started in the last year? Pages of them, that's how many!!!

[Franconicus]

Don, what are your conclusions from this result?

[Azi Tohak]

It's interesting that people still put this forward- it's a total hoax and even snopes.com has it listed as a false urban legend. All it really takes to debunk this though is some common sense- for a state to have an 85 average, an absurdly large segment of the population would need to be mentally retarded.

I won't comment further on what it would say about the intelligence of people who'd believe something so ridiculous.

Wasn't Forrest Gump about a 70? There are not that many Forrests in South Carolina... are there...?

Come on kiwitt, I just want to know how that is calculated. I want to know just how smrt my 19 on the ACT makes me!

And here is the magical bull**** flag:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/stateiq.asp

Origins: Some pranks are so good they keep working over and over again.

Back in November 2002, someone (using the name Robert Calvert) created and posted to a USENET newsgroup a phony chart which purportedly showed the average IQ per state in the U.S., along with the average income and a column indicating how that state voted in the 2000 presidential election. The gag was that all the states that voted for Vice-President Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election were clustered at the top of the IQ scale, while all the states that voted for then-Texas Governor George W. Bush were clustered at the bottom.

The chart's creator claimed to have been inspired by the book IQ and the Wealth of Nations and to have drawn his IQ data from the Ravens APM, but — save for the average income per state numbers, which were valid but outdated figures taken from the 1994 World Almanac — the chart was completely bogus. (The Ravens Advanced Progressive Matrices is not really a general intelligence test, nor do its publishers offer state-by-state test results data.) Nonetheless, a number of news publications (including the staid Economist) were taken in by the hoax — some mistakenly citing the information as having come from the book IQ and the Wealth of Nations, or even IQ and the Wealth of States — and published portions of the chart, and discussed it as if it were valid. (A similar hoax about presidential IQs produced similar media-fooling results back in 2001.)

Now, someone has dusted off the same chart and (omitting the economic data) applied it to the 2004 presidential election, keeping the primary gag intact: the "blue" (i.e., Democratic states) are all clustered at the top of the IQ scale, while the "red" (i.e., Republican) states are clustered at the bottom. Same hoax, different year. If 2008 produces another close presidential election as 2000 and 2004 did, expect to see this same joke again four years from now.

Azi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Americans know less languages that's for sure,

Your making my point here again. Of course they do as their neighbors speak a different language from them while we all speak english. Speaking another language is no indication of intelligence. Heck most Mexicans here speak better english than I do spanish but I doubt most of them are smarter.

I believe American schools should require World History early on (2nd or 3rd grade) starting with Classical History. We live in a democratic republic but American students rarely even touch where this government stemed from or what it means.

Now wonder education in this country is decling so rapidly if this is so. We studied this stuff from 1st grade through 12th. We only spent one year of HS on American history. Grammar school was a mix of American and world history.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Your making my point here again. Of course they do as their neighbors speak a different language from them while we all speak english. Speaking another language is no indication of intelligence. Heck most Mexicans here speak better english than I do spanish but I doubt most of them are smarter.

Yup.

Now wonder education in this country is decling so rapidly if this is so. We studied this stuff from 1st grade through 12th. We only spent one year of HS on American history. Grammar school was a mix of American and world history.

Gradeschool and high school teachers have to teach for the standardized tests (proficiency or whatever it is nowadays). Those are entirely us history. In highschool I had 3 years of us history, 1 of ancient and medieval, 1 of art history (elective) and 1 european (elective). Definatly a problem.

[master of the puppets]

uh its a shame that you non- US people have been drawn into the image of media and hollywood and sees the US as they do. its true many may be ignorant (and am embarrasing amount proud of it) but those are the ones me and my friends insult. the good many of us are intelligent, i am 15 and can speak latin, fence, basic buisness knoledge, am in a band, broadsword fight and much more. i know many who can do even more. the perception of us as ignborant is biased by a crappy ass media.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

Most Americans worship movie and television stars who could care less about the individuals, just that they continue to watch them. Just entering university level education, I see my peers striving to maintain an exceptable average just so they can work on becoming a 'rap star' or invent a million dollar idea. Another reason for the ignorance is because a majority of the young adults and children believe they should have everything handed to them on a plate.

The current situation truly saddens me.

[bmolsson]

Your making my point here again. Of course they do as their neighbors speak a different language from them while we all speak english. Speaking another language is no indication of intelligence. Heck most Mexicans here speak better english than I do spanish but I doubt most of them are smarter.

I think that this post really makes a point....