Shame on us

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm in support of debt relief, its not like you'll ever get the money back anyway. Don, there are many churches that do missionary work and oftem adopt entire villages and support those villiages with education, financial support, and even man power to help build homes and school houses. The key to helping the African plight is a two way street. Help them help themselves. Unfortunately I as well as many others don't do enough. I sae that program myself earlier last week and was deeply moved. Many times in the past I've said, "Not my problem", but since seeing that news cast I've changed my mind. Staring into the eyes of a helpless human being, even through a TV screen, has changed my mind. I'm shamed as well. I'm going to look into what my church does for the folks in Africa. I know we have missions that go there yearly. I've got to do something and I'm sure, whatever political belief you or anyone else on the Org have, have it in them to do more. And for those that are already helping these people, God bless you.

[Strike For The South]

Giving aid is great I do it and its a great feeling...but BP is right when he says something needs to be done about growth rates,Aids,Genocide. that might ease some of the suffering. (Niger definitely has had some horrible luck though)

[JAG]

It has been over the news here for a few days, it is a shame on all of us, I totally agree with you Don.

I also don't see how there is a conflict between giving aid / food etc and wanting political reforms home and in the African countries themselves. Both can and should be done, we shouldn't really be bickering about which is more important, but doing all of them.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I also don't see how there is a conflict between giving aid / food etc and wanting political reforms home and in the African countries themselves. Both can and should be done, we shouldn't really be bickering about which is more important, but doing all of them.

So we should just suck it up and give to the People's Red Bread Basket Organization? (Yeah, I made it up. Humor me.)

[Franconicus]

If somebody needs help, if lizzel children are suffering then it is not the time to ask who has done something wrong, whose fault it is. We should help! I totally agree with you, Don.

I know the 'Brot für die Welt' program here in Germany. It is from the Catholic church. They collect money tofight hunger in the world. Do not know if 'Bread for the World' is the same.

[PanzerJaeger]

I agree fully with Cube.. Africa is not America's responsibility and as long as we have significant problems with poverty in this country its irresponsible to try and fix African problems.

And if your conscience is killing you Don, give money to some Christian charities, they do a hell of a lot more good than the child-raping UN.

[Lazul]

And if your conscience is killing you Don, give money to some Christian charities, they do a hell of a lot more good than the child-raping UN.

what!? my friend in the UN is a child rapist! NOOOooooo....

rather silly comment there Panzy

[PanzerJaeger]

You may want to read a bit about the UN "mission" in the Congo.. that is, if you have a strong stomach.

[Don Corleone]

I don't think I made myself very clear if people think I saw the famine footage and decided I just needed to do something to help the famine victims. I saw the famine footage and I had an epiphany, a simple thought entered my mind, There is absolutely no reason for hunger anywhere in the world. Yes, by all means, it is incumbent on me to try to end it here in the United States. It's also incumbent on me to try to end it wherever else it exists.

I found a charity I actually think takes a great approach. It's called Project Heifer. It was featured on 60 Minutes (but don't let that slow you down). Rather than feeding people, their approach is more long term. The money you donate buys an animal that is given to a member of a village someplace. They also are trained on how to care for and raise the animal. When the animal has offspring, the pass the gift on to other members of their village. Their big focus is long term sustainable strategies.

For short-term, urgent relief, I sponsored a child on World Vision. I know I need to learn more, do more, but for the time being, until I know more, this is as good as anything I can come up with.

If anybody's interested in finding a charity that meets their personal requirements for giving, I HIGHLY recommend Charity Navigator It helps you find charities for any cause you think needs your help, will tell you how well they do in terms of transferring funds to actual project work, what the CEO's salary is, and how that charity stacks up against others doing the same work.

[Azi Tohak]

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.
2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big ones
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

Don, I like you and I respect you. But I don't see why I should give a crap about the worlds largest virus maker. The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?

Also, as GC pointed out:

In the United States, 13 million children live in households where people have to skip meals or eat less to make ends meet. That means one in ten households in the U.S. are living with hunger or are at risk of hunger.

We don't follow the same pattern as Africa does. I know France doesn't for example (what, 1.2 kids per woman? oh crap...). I don't think we can fix Africa's starving problems. But we can fix the problems in the US and Europe. I will check out your sites Don. Personally, I've always liked the Salvation Army.

Azi

[Xiahou]

The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?

I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people. I won't outline my thoughts again (I did earlier in this thread), but the problem manifold and certainly just throwing money or debt relief at Africans is going to accomplish little or nothing helpful.

[Azi Tohak]

I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people.

I know. Because you can't point out that maybe... just maybe... Africa can't support as many people as there are. Which means there should be fewer people. But that means people die. Which is bad. M'kay?

So why are they starving? Too dumb to farm? Soil gone from poor farming practices? (look at the ever expanding blob of the Sahara) Nothing is going to bring that back. Kicking out all the competent farmers because they are a different color (see my Farming thread here in the Backroom)?

What I don't understand is why hunger is 'curable' now. See my previous post for the story of Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. We feed them... they just come back stronger... If an area can't support the number of people there are, maybe those people shouldn't be there?

I'm not saying I don't think it is sad about the people there. I'm saying that there will always be hunger. Just like there will always be hatred, emnity, disparity.

Azi

[kiwitt]

I agree Don. There is no reason for hunger in the world. However, some people in power will see them as "useless eaters" (do a search on this), with nothing to add. I think every person has a right to basic human rights, and getting good food and water is one of those. It has been said many times. If just 10% of what is spent on the Military is diverted to these causes properly, the world would be a better place.

[mystic brew]

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.

and become more prosperous.

2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big one.
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

Well, in the end, as countries become more prosperous, the birth rate tends to fall. Emergent middle classes tend not to have as many children, so contribute more dollars to the economy, helping with reducing the aid required. So i wouldn't necassarily view it as a bottomless pit.

Alos to be honest, the ammount of money given out by all countries is pretty small (relative to the size of the economy.
The OECD set a target of 0.7% of GNP for aid for its members. Most countries aren't even giving that much at the moment.

And there are easy ways to make the money given go further, such as the 'untying' of aid. This could, in real terms, make a 30% increase in the value of aid given. in some area it might as much as double the real value.

[mystic brew]

So, Don, if you are looking for a way to make a real difference, look for an organisation that also supports the untying of aid.

At the moment, the money starts at governments, they give to local/international institutions, NGOs and so on down the line.

But they put conditions on its use, so the money can only be used to buy goods etc from the country the money came from. Imagine the carnage this produces in the buerocracy of the aid organisations.

So we need to make the Aid agencys more decision making ability. At the moment the thing is so cumbersome.

This isn't a panacea, but it they agencys can buy locally, they can get much more bang for buck, by using the money to help aid the locals in the local economies, as well as hunting around for good deals internationally.

[Lazul]

Africa is the way it couse ever since Europe and America and Asia to I would say became more powerfull then Africa they have raped the nation.
They divided Africa between themselfs with no respect for cultural and ethnic borders.
Africa can produce alot of food, africa got huge amounts of natural resourses and africa has potential. But what it all comes down to are the wars, endless wars and conflicts that we of the west do little to stop.

In the ancient times kingdomes could justifie their existance and ruling due to the fact that they could organize food production and then store away the surpluss so when the drought came, wich they knew allways came from time to time they could take the stored food and deliever it to the needy.

I doubt that nations in africa has become so backwards that they cant do what ancient kingdomes had the capability to do then. The reason african nations often dont have the capability to store away surplus food is couse most money goes to the army since there is allways one or two conflicts in a bordering nation.

Peace = less money to the military = more money to produce food.
The west shouldnt just thorw money at africa but focus on making peace and the rest will solve itself.

well thats all I got to say about that.

(oh, and if a nation wants to go Socialist or Communist, for the love of your God! Dont stop them!)