Profanity in Historic Fiction

[The Shadow One]

I'm going to use a quote from a certain writer. Points to the person who knows who said it.

"If he stepped in Sh*t, then write that. 'He stepped in sh*t.' don't work around it. but also don't make a habit of overusing it."

That's my opinion on this subject.

(censored because it's not needed for me to say the word)

Did it come from Stephen King's On Writing? I'm not at home, so I don't have a copy to check, but I think he said something pretty close to that.

I don't disagree with your statement when it comes to how we write today and the words we use.

Maybe this is the way to look at the issue: does the fact that we use such language in our writing today prove we use it when talk. If so, does the absence of the word in Fifth, Tenth, Sixteenth Century literature mean that people who lived back then didn't use the word (or other profanity, for that matter).

After all, I believe our use of the present word "Damn" is the shortened version of the longer "Damnation."

[shifty157]

Maybe this is the way to look at the issue: does the fact that we use such language in our writing today prove we use it when talk. If so, does the absence of the word in Fifth, Tenth, Sixteenth Century literature mean that people who lived back then didn't use the word (or other profanity, for that matter).

Well you also must consider that it wasnt the common vulgar peasant that was writing stories in the early centuries. The only people who wrote at these times were monks, historians (which where often monks as well), or wandering minstrels (who probably didnt write anything down anyway).

[KukriKhan]

Fascinating subject, being well-examined. However, let's not go overboard in the use of 'the word'. If it's not absolutely necessary to make your point/observation, please eschew its use, lest some other folks get the wrong idea and start using it in other Org forums, and get into trouble for it.

Thanks. Please carry on.

[Nigel]

Fascinating subject indeed.... while I dont consider myself to be a man attrackted by profanity, I feel strangely compelled to add my comments.

I have to say I find it hard to belive that the typical common solider or peasant did not use his share of curses in his day to day language. Shadow said he finds if hard to think the Spartan soldiers talked "like a bunch of drunken marines". And why not, for after all, that's what they were (well, perhaps not drunken, but marines still - the tough-stuff elite soldiers of their time).

A very good point was made by the one who pointed out that most common people were in fact not literate, and that those who did the writing usually had a different level of language than the commen soldiers and peasants. Even so, their spoken language would differ from their written language - I know for sure mine does, anyway.

As for wether a particular specific word has been used, I guess that depends when that word found its entry into the English language. I would find it absolutely plausible if at first the word was just a very pleasent description of love-making and then, as language developt, dropped down to the level of profanity. And as for representing dialog (or monologue) in the modern text of a historical novel, it would be only fair to use the modern equivalent of whatever the contemporary "technical term" had been. As those were hardly ever written down, we will probably never find out what words they really used in the olden days.


Oh dear, now I have gone and written 3 paragraphs on this subject.

[CrackedAxe]

As far as including profanities in historical fiction goes, well it's the same as any writing device, don't do it so much that it makes the reader become conscious of the writer and breaks the reader's immersion in the story. I'd say keep it very subtle and avoid strong words like the 'F' word due to it's modern sound (regardless of the actual antiquity of the word). Ancient warriors probably did swear like, well, troopers, but you don't need to litter your dialogue with expletives for it to carry impact. In fact, over-use of swearing will probably detract from it.

[The Shadow One]

Fascinating subject indeed.... while I dont consider myself to be a man attrackted by profanity, I feel strangely compelled to add my comments.

I have to say I find it hard to belive that the typical common solider or peasant did not use his share of curses in his day to day language. Shadow said he finds if hard to think the Spartan soldiers talked "like a bunch of drunken marines". And why not, for after all, that's what they were (well, perhaps not drunken, but marines still - the tough-stuff elite soldiers of their time).

To Nigel and All:

Just a couple of quick points, as I think some have misunderstood me. First, I don't pretend ancients didn't curse nor do I draw the line for cursing along economic or social lines. After all, I regularly go into law offices in this wonderful city of mine and in even the biggest and most expensive, the language doesn't vary too much from what you hear on the street.

I'm sure Spartan soliders cursed -- or did whatever was socially acceptable to express their opinion. Sometimes I think we forget that while people may be the same in many ways the world over, language and social customs differ significantly. Consider Japanese or Chinese culture, for example.

My point simply was whether people used a particular word and if they used with the full-bore regularity that we do.

Thanks to all for their insight.

[The Shadow One]

Well you also must consider that it wasnt the common vulgar peasant that was writing stories in the early centuries. The only people who wrote at these times were monks, historians (which where often monks as well), or wandering minstrels (who probably didnt write anything down anyway).

Shifty:

I love your comment, I really do. I wonder what it says about our society that ever time I get one of those expensive literary magazines in the mail, it usually has more than a couple of such words in it.

My grandmother, God bless her, would say were going to h*** in a handbasket.

[Ja'chyra]

Shadow

Interesting question.

I think you are right in one sense, it is highly unlikely that Spartans, Romans Egyptians etc used the F word, or any other modern curse words for that matter. But, I think it's very likely that they used their own curses.

Let's face it nothing sums up certain circumstances like an expletive e.g. 2000 enemy warriors crest the rise you and your 20 mates are heading towards, I think the F word sums up the situation nicely. Even in non-warlike scenarios it fits, imagine the saw slipping on the last cut of a job that has taken you a week, or the top of the ketchup bottle flying off when you shake the bottle.

So I would say that ancient warriors would've cursed like drunken marines, but marines of their day not ours.

[CrackedAxe]

I suppose the short answer to the question of how often people in ancient times used swear words is - we're unlikely to ever know. As has been said, only the privileged few could and would write, and writing materials were time-consuming to produce and difficult to come by. Writing was a serious and solemn business and the writers of the time probably didn't see much reason for rendering common dialogue into speech, as the on the occasions that they would write they would be more involved with recording important historical, political or legal events, or high-blown speeches, or telling epic tales of heroic deeds, and not particularly concerned with providing a historical resource on common language use for future historians millenia later!

That said, it is down to the imagination of the writer as to how much swearing and of what sort to include, with the caution I advised in an earlier post on this thread