Save/load bug?

[lysarin]

I've been hearing people here at the org mention a save/load bug? Whats that? Well, I figure it has something to do with saving and loading and that it effects the AI. But what exactly does the bug do and how can I fix it/avoid it?

Thanks

[Bulawayo]

Hej tjena kompis,

Det har varit mycket tjafs fram & tillbaka om den där buggen. Den går kortfattat ut på att AI:n avbryter sina belägringar när man "loadar" en pågående kampanj. Tydligen ska det gå bra om man fortsätter spela nonstop utan att ladda överhuvudtaget. Personligen blir jag belägrad och stormad oavsett om jag laddar eller ej, så jag vet inte riktigt hur pass mycket buggen påverkar spelet egentligen. Med påbyggnaden Barbarian invasion så kommer det utan tvivel att ordnas, förhoppningsvis

[PseRamesses]

(Har aldrig råkat ut för den själv och jag börjar misstänka att någon av dina allierade har blivit allierad med den du attackerar utan att du har uppfattat det. Om den här buggen finns så borde ju jag ha märkt det eftersom jag har spelat RTW sedan den kom ut?! Å grabbar, håll er till engelska när ni postar. Det har varit en del rabalder om det tidigare här.)

Have never encountered the save/ load bug myself although I´ve been playing the game since it was released. I´m beginning to suspect that this has something to do with alliances - the one you´re attacking has gotten into an alliance with your foe so the siege is broken. The save/ load bug - myth or fact? Anyone?

[magnum]

The Save/Load bug refers to the fact that the game does not save AI intentions nor attitude towards other factions in the save game file. It does save the current political situation though (i.e. allied with so-and-so, at war with whomever, etc.) This often resulted in sieges being lifted by the AI after a reload because the AI re-evaluated from scratch what to do with its armies. Technically its not a bug as it was not intended to save that type of information. Unfortunately the side effect of it is that if a player reloads often then the AI is at a disadvantage and tends to expand poorly.

[PseRamesses]

The Save/Load bug refers to the fact that the game does not save AI intentions nor attitude towards other factions in the save game file. It does save the current political situation though (i.e. allied with so-and-so, at war with whomever, etc.) This often resulted in sieges being lifted by the AI after a reload because the AI re-evaluated from scratch what to do with its armies. Technically its not a bug as it was not intended to save that type of information. Unfortunately the side effect of it is that if a player reloads often then the AI is at a disadvantage and tends to expand poorly.

Yes yes I know. But how do you explain the fact that I´ve never experienced it? I´ve been playing daily since the game came out! And trust me, I do save and reload a lot!

[TB666]

Yes yes I know. But how do you explain the fact that I´ve never experienced it? I´ve been playing daily since the game came out! And trust me, I do save and reload a lot!

Yeah I got it the day it got out and I have only seen it happen 3 times.
I guess some people are lucky while others aren't.
Of course I only save when I exit the game and load when I start the game.

[Volstag]

Yes yes I know. But how do you explain the fact that I´ve never experienced it?

To see an extreme example of this so-called "AI reassessment" at work, check out the following: http://www.stampor.com/Rome/exploit.html (if you're on dial-up, it'll take forever). If you want to see the research that was conducted, simply read this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45860. Whether you've explicitly witnessed this bug, or not, doesn't change the fact that it's probably happening somewhere to some faction.

-V

[BobTheTerrible]

Yes yes I know. But how do you explain the fact that I´ve never experienced it? I´ve been playing daily since the game came out! And trust me, I do save and reload a lot!

The bug doesn't happen immediately after you reload,(well technically it does, but you don't see the all of the effects until you press end turn). You can get some wacked up diplomacy the turn you reload. Ask any faction you are at war with the become a protectorate right after reload. They will accept.

But the main squabble with the bug is that the AI tends to lift most of its sieges upon hitting "end turn." This is because The AI "forgets" what it is doing, completely re-evalutes things, and most of the time it will instinctively send its armies back home.

If you don't believe it, try this test. Start a campaign as (I'll just pick a random faction here) Brutii. Now run the game for twenty or so turns without saving or reloading. Don't do anything with your faction, just hit end turn twenty times successively. Using toggle_fow, count how many provinces changed hands. No doubt you'll get upwards of 8 or so, more or less depending if you're using a mod or not.

Now start the same campaign, same difficulty, with brutii again. Save the game before you do anything. Then load the game. Then press end turn. At your next turn, save the game. Before you hit end turn, load the game you just saved, then hit end turn.

Do this for twenty turns. Count the amount of provinces that changed hands (using toggle_fow). You'll find that maybe 1 or 2 provinces actually changed hands, and most likely, these were ones without walls (in which the AI could besiege and assault in the same turn).

[Midnight]

I belive the save\load is why I never see *any* factions (save the Romans, eventually) make any headway anywhere - not even rebel towns fall. I don't have time to play for long sessions, so this pretty much kills the game for me.

[Puzz3D]

How much the campaign AI is disadvantaged depends on how often you save and load. In my present campaign, I played 240 turns without stopping. Unfortunately, it took 10 days playing at least 8 hours a day to do it. All rebel provinces were taken over by the AI within the first 30 years or so, and any provinces that revolted were retaken in a few years. This resulted in 5 strong factions besides myself by 150 BC.

Realistically, since most sieges last 6 or 7 turns, if you can play 20 or more turns at a time the effect is probably minimal most of the time. In my present campaign at 150 BC, the AI factions are rather static and there are turns with no sieges in progress on the entire map. However, failure of the AI to take a particular province at a critical point because of a broken siege could change the course of the campaign. At the very least, failure to take a province as quickly as possible is an economic setback for that faction.

[lysarin]

Hmm... is the "damage" caused by the bug permanent or just temporary? For instance, if the AI is besieging a city and then the bug occurs and they abandon the siege, will they realise that they are making a big mistake and attack again or will they just sit idle for 200 years?

[pezhetairoi]

I think they....eventually rebesiege, if I remember what I read from some other threads...

[magnum]

Generally in 1 to 2 turns they will 'remember' what they were doing and re-siege. Sometimes though they won't in which case there will be an army that pretty much just sits there never doing anything.

[PseRamesses]

Hmm, thx for the insight guys. I realize now that it might have occured although I´ve never witnessed it. And maybee my behaviour of saving when finishing a game is the key to my lack of insight. Did the "fow-test" today and I must say I´m a beliver now. Thx again. This has been really educating.

[Puzz3D]

Generally in 1 to 2 turns they will 'remember' what they were doing and re-siege. Sometimes though they won't in which case there will be an army that pretty much just sits there never doing anything.

Yes it takes a couple of turns to get the siege back in place if the AI still considers it the best strategy. What I usually see after a reload is the AI will first move it's army away from the city it was sieging. Then on the second turn it will move the army back and resiege the city. It's as though sieging is a two step process that's starting over. Not only is a turn of sieging lost, but the city's time period to hold out is reset to the full amount.

I've seen zombie armies which wander off with no apparent purpose in other campaigns, but in the campaign where I didn't reload for 240 turns I haven't seen this happen, although, two AI factions in this campaign do have a number of armies positioned defensively. Brutii has 6 full armies hanging around in the heel of Italy. There is no threat to that region and Brutii is not trying to expand. They have maxed out their military relative to their income and have no money in the treasury. These Brutii armies will no doubt respond if a threat enters their region of influence, and they are defending an important area.

Julii and Macedon have been at war for 100 years and Julii was winning all the battles and captured two cities. Macedon, which had a tremendous amount of money in the treasury, eventually responded by training several large armies. However, Julii had to pull most of it's army out of the area to respond to attacks by me on them in Italy. Macedon now has a bunch of armies with no mission, and they are pretty much just hanging around Macedonia.

If an AI army wanders off to an area where there aren't any threats after a broken siege, it will probably just hang around and not do anything. I've watched where the AI moves it's army after a broken siege and it seems like it's just retreating. I don't think I'm seeing failed assaults since the army in the city doesn't seem to take any losses. The AI might be treating broken sieges after a reload as failed assaults, retreating and then not picking up a new mission because a different army picks up its original siege mission or the mission is cancelled.

[Joe_Nvidio828]

It doesnt happen when you QUICK LOAD(crtl - L). It only happens when you save, exit RTW, then restart it up. It will load up, then you do everything you want, hit end turn, and every enemy army that had any of your cities sieged, will lift the siege and turn around and head home. And even if armies are enroute to a city, they will also turn around.

But then the next turn, they will resume what they were doing before. They will re-siege your cities and send armies en-route to your territory.

I m not sure what people are thinking when they say "its only happend a couple times to me." It happens EVERY time you load a save from scratch. It just isnt as obvious every time. But in the thick of a all-out war (eg. julii VS brutti, scippi) it is quite obvious.

It is good and bad in that if you want a siege lifted from a city, if u arent ready or something, just exit and load.

It is bad in that, if u have many cities sieged for a few turns, then exit, you will have to retrain all your troops and the very next turn, ur city will get sieged again. and you now have to wait from the beginning till they assault. so its a waste of money.

either way, its dumb and needs to be fixed.

[player1]

it happens with quick load too...

[sunsmountain]

Simply turn off the fog of war (press `, backspace, and enter toggle_fow). Play a couple of turns (7 or so), and wait for a moment when you see a couple of sieges in place. Take note of them, and reload. Hit the turn button, and voila, most/all sieges are lifted.

Similarly, off an AI faction a protectorate (you have to be at war with them first). They will say no. Quicksave, quickload, and they will say yes. (that's what the exploit page is referring to).
You can conquer the entire map in 267BC this way, depending on starting position.

[Elephant]

No ways to fix this bug, I assume? As it maybe a lacking feature in the game engine for AI to remember their strategies?

Or is there a mod? I mean, it's just no challenge at all playing against defensive dummies! Yet, sometimes I need to remake moves... I guess it's just a habit I will need to form, and refrain from saving and reloadingm too often...

[sik1977]

No ways to fix this bug, I assume? As it maybe a lacking feature in the game engine for AI to remember their strategies?

Or is there a mod? I mean, it's just no challenge at all playing against defensive dummies! Yet, sometimes I need to remake moves... I guess it's just a habit I will need to form, and refrain from saving and reloadingm too often...

The upcoming (promissed) patch is suppose to fix it. Barring that, you have to change your play style to minimise the effects.

[JJU57]

This sure explains alot. I normally leave the game on even when I can't play for an hour or two as long as I'm going to play latter. The other day I played several one turn sessions where I saved and left the game and then came back. I was perplexed why Egypt started a seige then withdrew its troops only to restart the seige a turn latter. It was like watching a two step dance. I originally thought it was because I was sending a 20 army relief force that way and they retreated only to go back when I changed direction.

Now I have to leave the computer on 24-7 till I'm done with a campaign. Ironman all the way from now on.

[Browning]

It doesn't have to be on all the time. You can as well switch to Windows without quitting the game and then hibernate your system.