Suspend the Loyalists

[Tribesman]

After this weekends widespread violence in the 6 counties ; over 700 shots fired at police and army forces , armed road blocks being set up by terrorists , too many bombs to count , the discovery of a city centre bomb factory : is it time that the Loyalist politicians got the same treatment as the Republicans and are suspended/expelled from government ?
Or are some groups more deserving of special treatment despite the fact that they refuse to declare a ceasefire , refuse to decommision their weapons and state that they will never give up the armed struggle and pursue their objectives through purely peaceful political efforts .

[Papewaio]

I think it is the other side of the coin... the Loyalists are 'Loyal' to Britain... obviously not that loyal to those who represent the government of Britain if they are attacking cops.

[English assassin]

is it time that the Loyalist politicians got the same treatment as the Republicans and are suspended/expelled from government ?

Yes. (Assuming the politicians can be linked to the terrorism. After all we never excluded the SDLP)

Or are some groups more deserving of special treatment despite the fact that they refuse to declare a ceasefire , refuse to decommision their weapons and state that they will never give up the armed struggle and pursue their objectives through purely peaceful political efforts .

No. But some groups are deserving of a big slap in the chops and being told to grow up with all this bloody marching.

Ah. British terrorists are confusing. Here in the US, we just lump them all together in the "Islamic Fascist Freedom-Haters" category

This would be especially ironic for the IRA, who are catholic marxists.

[Adrian II]

Yes. (Assuming the politicians can be linked to the terrorism. After all we never excluded the SDLP)

I heard that one of the major reasons for this weekend's screw-up is the lack of leadership in Loyalist circles. It seems the UVF and the Orange (Dis)Orders expected a police crack-down any moment and this is what touched off the violent behaviour of many chapters and individuals. All in all, last weekend must havebeen about the worst pr job imaginable for the Loyalists.

[Tribesman]

Yes. (Assuming the politicians can be linked to the terrorism. After all we never excluded the SDLP)
Since the head of the executive is a member of the order and members of the order were attacking the security forces while still wearing their Orange regalia then yes they can be linked , add that the same happened last week with the Black order in Tyrone , plus the head of the executive initially refused to condemn the usual spate of bomb attacks on schools that mark the start of the new academic year .
Then yes the political leaders can be linked to it .

[Templar Knight]

Bomb attacks on schools? Man what a bunch of knobs.

[Tribesman]

My mistake , while the head of the executive marches with the Orange order , makes an annual address to the order , supports the order , he is not actually a member of it , only of the Apprentices .

Bomb attacks on schools? Man what a bunch of knobs.
Hey it makes a nice change from attacking churches and homes

[English assassin]

members of the order were attacking the security forces while still wearing their Orange regalia

[Paisley on] Probably Fenian infitrators [Paisley off]

There you have NI in a nutshell.

It doesn't quite link the order as an organisation, but on the basis that they created the conditions for the trouble, and that the loyalists are really pushing their luck, fair enough.

All in all, last weekend must have been about the worst pr job imaginable for the Loyalists.

Other than every time Paisley opens his mouth that is (father or son, they are both as bad)

[BDC]

Hit them all with sticks. Deserve nothing less. Possibly deport them to Syria or something as you would do with every other terrorist.

[Don Corleone]

Well, since ShadesPanther appears to be absent from this discussion, let me take the role of defending the Unionists. Don't they have a right to free assembly? Why should certain areas of Belfast be declared 'anti-free speech' zone? I find the marchers to be in poor taste, but so long as they remain peaceful, they have every right to do it. They only became violent when their right to free assembly was revoked.

[Duke Malcolm]

The loyalists attacked the police because they feel that they have been betrayed by their government, who is working closely with the republicans. The Republicans haven't been suspended I think, they just refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance in Westminster to take their seats (while still getting the perks and allowances and offices of MPs). The reason the Stormont Assembly isn't sitting is because the DUP doesn't want to share power with Sinn Fein

[English assassin]

Well, since ShadesPanther appears to be absent from this discussion, let me take the role of defending the Unionists. Don't they have a right to free assembly? Why should certain areas of Belfast be declared 'anti-free speech' zone? I find the marchers to be in poor taste, but so long as they remain peaceful, they have every right to do it. They only became violent when their right to free assembly was revoked.

No, they don't, in fact. There is a legally constituted commission that rules on where marches can go and it ruled against them here. They were perfectly entitled to have a march, just not where they wanted. If they don't want to obey British laws then they can have republic laws as soon as they like.

I don't think there is anything new or controversial in the idea that yes, you can have a rally, but no, you can't have it exactly when and where you like. No one minds when the G8 protestors are told they can have their demonstration 80 miles from the G8 summit after all...

The Orange order marching up and down catholic roads isn't all that far from the KKK announcing it would like the right to march in Harlem.

so long as they remain peaceful, they have every right to do it

That would have been one of the problems with the original route.

[Don Corleone]

Actually, they do allow permits for controversial protests here in the US. The Klan protested out in front of the Holocaust memorial the day it was opened. Native Americans go into Little Italy in New York City and protest Columbus. Do you think Martin Luther King got where he got by only holding marches in black neighborhoods?

To claim that the Catholics are somehow subhuman and cannot be expected to revert from violence due to offensive speech is seriously dehumanizing and marginalizing the Catholics. Even if you're right, then the restrictions should have been put on the Catholics, as they're the ones starting the violence. So long as all the Orangemen are doing is beating drums and talking about how inferior Catholics are (note, no physical violence) they should have the right to do it in any public space, including the street corner in front of the Catholic cathedral in Belfast. If the Catholics cannot control themselves, they should all be put under house arrest.

What's more, the right to free speech is no such thing if it must be justified in certain contexts. I hate that people were going around having "we got what we deserved" protests yesterday, but I would have hated it more if the government came out and said "any day but today". I exercised my right to free speech by driving up to one and telling the assemblage exactly what I thought of them (as well as their parentage, their intelligence and anything else I could think of). Note: no physical violence on their part or mine, we were all within our rights.

Like I said, I think it's pretty small and petty that the UVF and the Orangemen feel a need to go around marching to celebrate a 300 year old victory, but the point is, it should be their right to. That's the thing about rights... if they're qualified for being tasteful, then they're not rights.

[Duke Malcolm]

They should, but the only place they can is the 6 counties and Glasgow. Any ones elsewhere in the UK (as far as I know) have been marred by violence, or simply voted down by the local Council

[Don Corleone]

How can the Local Council vote to grant (or withhold) what should be an absolute right in any modern democracy? IF the Orange order decided to march around St. Peter's Roman Catholic cathedral in Belfast chanting "the Pope is a queer" until they collapsed from exhaustion, they should have that right. Should some Catholic take offense to their speech and answer them, with speech, they're still well within their rights. But if the Catholics respond with violence, then the answer is to imprison the Catholics for engaging in violence, not denying a right to the Orangemen.

Think about it guys... the gist of the argument for even having a parade committe is "You have freedom of speech, but only the freedom to say that which will not offend others". That's no freedom of speech at all.

[Duke Malcolm]

That's Political Correctness, and the sinister of the West fo you...

[Tribesman]

Even if you're right, then the restrictions should have been put on the Catholics, as they're the ones starting the violence.
Yes Don It was the Catholics that wanted to march through a gate that is never opened even for the people who live on the road where the gate is , and of course it was the Catholics who attacked the police for not allowing them to walk through a gate that is welded shut , it was also the Catholics who placed 3 bombs in a infant school, it was masked catholic gunmen marching with the parade that opened fire on the security services .

The Republicans haven't been suspended I think,
Try again Malcolm

[Don Corleone]

Even if you're right, then the restrictions should have been put on the Catholics, as they're the ones starting the violence.
Yes Don It was the Catholics that wanted to march through a gate that is never opened even for the people who live on the road where the gate is , and of course it was the Catholics who attacked the police for not allowing them to walk through a gate that is welded shut , it was also the Catholics who placed 3 bombs in a infant school, it was masked catholic gunmen marching with the parade that opened fire on the security services .

You're mixing issues. I'm arguing for the right of the Unionists (or any other group of obnoxious, offensive Incompatible language) to spout their views in public, i.e. the unrestricted parade routes. When they engage in any of the other activities you mention, such as attacking the police or letting off bombs, they that's not a question of free speech anymore, and they should be arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned... FOR THE CRIMES they committed, but not for what they said.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How can the Local Council vote to grant (or withhold) what should be an absolute right in any modern democracy? IF the Orange order decided to march around St. Peter's Roman Catholic cathedral in Belfast chanting "the Pope is a queer" until they collapsed from exhaustion, they should have that right. Should some Catholic take offense to their speech and answer them, with speech, they're still well within their rights. But if the Catholics respond with violence, then the answer is to imprison the Catholics for engaging in violence, not denying a right to the Orangemen.

Think about it guys... the gist of the argument for even having a parade committe is "You have freedom of speech, but only the freedom to say that which will not offend others". That's no freedom of speech at all.

Don:

Some of the actual Anglos can correct me on this, but I suspect that -- absent a written Constitution such as you and I live under -- there is no basic right to freedom of speech. Such freedom is a hallowed custom in England, but not -- I believe -- codified in any fashion so basic as ours.

Seamus

[_Martyr_]

This weekend has been an absolute disgrace. Loyalism is in shambles and has been clearly exposed as the stubborn petty and criminal element that it is.

These parades have not always been peaceful. Only one thing is certain they ALWAYS lead to violence. Whether that violence be caused by local residents throwing rocks at the marchers or vice versa it doesnt really matter. Both sides have been guilty of it in the past, and the outcome is the same. More violence, more sectarian hatred, a continued cycle. Free speach is not what is in question here. Either is the right to public gathering. What is in question is the right to hold a large scale parade where one wants, especially one of this nature that single handedly continues a circle of violence in a region that is trying to pick itself out of a warzone. The law in NI states that every parade must be granted a license by a parades commission. This commission is completely independent and assess the route planned by the parade and grants that route if they feel that it is appropriate. If it is not appropriate then an alternative is suggested. Should the Saddam loyal Sunnis in Iraq be allowed to parade to one of the gas attacked Kurd or Shia villages and rejoice their "glorious victory"? Should the RIRA be allowed to march down the main street of Omagh? What about some extreme Muslim Fundis in the USA should they be allowed to march around ground zero in NY? Free Speach is a right here which garuntees that you wont be thrown in jail for saying what you say (as long as it doesnt incite people to... yad ayda yada...) it is not a carte blanch to do whatever the hell you want without any limitations and any considerations of the reprocussions.

[Don Corleone]

I don't see how you can call yourself a free country and not have it recognized as a basic right. Notice the word I chose, recgonized. The government doesn't give the people the right to say what they want. The people give the government the chance to exist. This whole idea of we as a people being beholden to the government and we should be thankful for whatever scraps fall off of the table in terms of political rights.... it's sickening. Nobody gives me the right to vote, or the right to work harder and get my family ahead. Even if you use the term as a euphemism, they are 'God given', much the same way insurance companies recognize 'acts of God', even if they're all atheists. The fact is, rights exist because people exist. If you deny or limit the right, then you cannot say you are a representational society. At some level, you're something else.... an aristocray, a platocracy, whatever you want to call yourselves.

Look, I know these guys are offensive. Don't you think having the Klan outside the Shoah memorial the day it opened claiming the Holocaust was a lie was painful? Especially for the survivors who watched family members totured, raped and executed? Free speech isn't easy, if it was, we wouldn't have to remind ourselves of how important it is, it would just be obvious. But the way to deal with difficult or offensive ideas is to hold them up to scrutiny and rebut them, not silence them or limit them.

[GoreBag]

I think you're right, Seamus. In any case, if the "right" to free speech has an exception, then it's not really free speech, but it's also the most you can get out of your "right".

I didn't realise that the conflicts in Ireland were beginning to grow heavy again.

[Don Corleone]

This weekend has been an absolute disgrace. Loyalism is in shambles and has been clearly exposed as the stubborn petty and criminal element that it is.

These parades have not always been peaceful. Only one thing is certain they ALWAYS lead to violence. Whether that violence be caused by local residents throwing rocks at the marchers or vice versa it doesnt really matter. Both sides have been guilty of it in the past, and the outcome is the same. More violence, more sectarian hatred, a continued cycle. Free speach is not what is in question here. Either is the right to public gathering. What is in question is the right to hold a large scale parade where one wants, especially one of this nature that single handedly continues a circle of violence in a region that is trying to pick itself out of a warzone. The law in NI states that every parade must be granted a license by a parades commission. This commission is completely independent and assess the route planned by the parade and grants that route if they feel that it is appropriate. If it is not appropriate then an alternative is suggested. Should the Saddam loyal Sunnis in Iraq be allowed to parade to one of the gas attacked Kurd or Shia villages and rejoice their "glorious victory"? Should the RIRA be allowed to march down the main street of Omagh? What about some extreme Muslim Fundis in the USA should they be allowed to march around ground zero in NY? Free Speach is a right here which garuntees that you wont be thrown in jail for saying what you say (as long as it doesnt incite people to... yad ayda yada...) it is not a carte blanch to do whatever the hell you want without any limitations and any considerations of the reprocussions.

In all these cases, yes! If the RIRA admitted to being the ones to bomb the people during the march, then the police should haul them off and try them. But if they hold an equivalent march and go up and down the street and say "Ha ha, you got what you deserved", or the Sunnis hold a purification rally in a Kurdish village that had previously been gassed..... all of these things are vile and disgusting, and completely and utterly necessary to ensure that you have a functioning democracy. The very fact that NI has a law requiring a parades commission to approve what you intend to say and where you're going to say it.... I would offer as evidence that NI is not a represenational democracy.

[Don Corleone]

And as I said earlier, we had a protest here in Greensboro, NC, yesterday, the 4th anniversery of 9/11, where a bunch of college students held a rally to say we got what we deserved and if we don't restore the Taliban & Saddam, we'll deserve anything we get after that too...

Now, I found it disgusting. You see how worked up I get in the Backroom, imagine how I took this? One of my friends from high school died, leaving behind a wife, an infant, a toddler, 2 parents and hundreds of friends, all of whom miss him badly. I had to listen to these Incompatible language say everyone in the towers deserved to die and the usual filth that comes out of the far left in this country. But no matter how angry I got, and no matter what I said in response, did I ever wish the police would show up and silence them.

[_Martyr_]

Again, what is at hand is not the right of freedom of speach. Nobody is for one minute denying these people the right to say whatever the hell they want. What is being denied to them is a very specific parade route. They are allowed to parade in the NEXT STREET OVER!! Maybe if you knew more about the situation and looked at it with less idealistic eyes you would have a different opinion.


If you guys are serious about this, then I repeat. Would you allow a large group of Taliban to march right through Ground Zero singing praises to the 9/11 Hijackers and calling for the Destruction of America? Or would you divert their little parade to the nearest possible street where the little group of friendly harmless (only excercising their rights) group of Islamofascists wouldnt be beaten to a bloody pulp by 2 million enraged New Yorkers...?

[Tribesman]

I'm arguing for the right of the Unionists (or any other group of obnoxious, offensive Incompatible language) to spout their views in public, i.e. the unrestricted parade routes.
But there is the threat to public order to take into consideration aswell , if something is a threat to public order then it should be stopped .
Too many times in the past have the commission allowed contentious parades to be allowed with certain restrictions placed upon them , only to see the marchers break the conditions .
While they are complaining about their right to march they are still blocking primary school children from walking down the road to school through the front gate and making them take a large detour and entering across the fields , if you recall the the nice residents and their supporters in addition to the verbal abuse and missile attacks even went as far as throwing explosive devices at the school kids to persude them not to walk where they are not wanted .
So why should the bloody idiots be demanding the right to march wherever they want to ?
As for this part of your earlier post.....If the Catholics cannot control themselves, they should all be put under house arrest.
The thing is it involves putting people under "house arrest" even if they have commited no crime or have any intention of commiting a crime , based solely on their religeon and where they live , how can that equate with any sense of freedom or freedom of speech ?

[_Martyr_]

And as I said earlier, we had a protest here in Greensboro, NC, yesterday, the 4th anniversery of 9/11, where a bunch of college students held a rally to say we got what we deserved and if we don't restore the Taliban & Saddam, we'll deserve anything we get after that too...

Now, I found it disgusting. You see how worked up I get in the Backroom, imagine how I took this? One of my friends from high school died, leaving behind a wife, an infant, a toddler, 2 parents and hundreds of friends, all of whom miss him badly. I had to listen to these Incompatible language say everyone in the towers deserved to die and the usual filth that comes out of the far left in this country. But no matter how angry I got, and no matter what I said in response, did I ever wish the police would show up and silence them.

Here is the crux of the matter DC, were these student demonstrators allowed to march directly through ground zero? Or where they only allowed to demonstrate outside?

[Duke Malcolm]

Tribesman, from what have the republicans been suspended?

[Don Corleone]

I honestly do not know whether there were any pro-Taliban protests at ground zero yesterday or not. Knowing my country, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

My point is that I'm not unsympathetic. I know it's incredibly offensive (I need to watch my language this time) stuff to have to deal with. I know how angry it can make you to have to hear this stuff. In terms of location, think about how actual Holocaust survivors felt in Washington D.C. when they walked out of the opening and saw a bunch of Klansmen walking around saying they were lying about the holocaust?

Again, I'm not trying to be an idealist on this issue, but I think you've heard everything I've had to say, other than, at the end of the day, I find these Orange parades, childish, moronic, and even sickening. If you're forced to rely on the glorious past of 300 years ago, you're clearly not dwelling in the present or planning for the future.

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, from what have the republicans been suspended?
They were suspended over the allegations of a "spy ring" at Stormont in 2002 .