How to get reliable informations about God

[Byzantine Prince]

God damn it, I was looking for some wisdom and all I got was truism.

[Kagemusha]

Im sorry, but the day i will meet him.I wont be typing here to tell you guys.

[yesdachi]

That’s a pretty broad topic. Is there a particular god you are trying get reliable information about? There is plenty of literature about gods of all kinds but you might have to pick one at a time, as there are definitely conflicting stories.

This question is kind of like “How to get reliable information about Star Trek”. There is lots of information out there but its probably fictions, but reliable. There are 4 decks on a defiant class ship and Jesus did have 12 apostles. Both are true but are they fact or fiction? The difference would be proof. I can prove Star Trek is fiction. But I can t and neither can anyone else, prove there is or isn’t a god. I happen to think there is and it would be nice if there were some reliable information about God. I have a hard time trusting the official “books” because I think they may have been interpreted incorrectly, example: burning bush. Our languages change so often it is sometimes hard to read/translate documents that are hundreds of years old let alone thousands. I cant trust my brother to decipher the instructions to set a VCR how can I trust a zealot of questionable education and motive to translate the word of God. “The righteous will live by faith” plus I don’t want to know too much, I’d like to have a surprise waiting for me on the other side (Captain Kirk is that you?)

Oh boy, I just compared God to Star Trek… That’s not going to look good on my resume when applying for an angle job in the next life. I will probably get reincarnated into a monk for that.

[A.Saturnus]

Religion is basically uninquirable acceptance.

That´s not an answer to my question. The reliability of something may influence whether you believe it, but whether you believe it doesn´t influence reliability.
Were Muhammed´s miracles any better than David Copperfield´s? But even if, that would still not make his source reliable. You should consider the possibility that should God tell you something directly, it might still be wrong.
That you feel God´s existence might be reason enough for you, but it is still not a reliable source, even for you. Feelings can be misleading.

[LeftEyeNine]

Your statements lead you to your words' self-conflict. So may be your thoughts are. So may your "null" feelings about God be wrong although it is only an outcome of your own mind.

That's a paradox based on confusing and stunning statements you are claiming right now.

David Copperfield was an entertainer Muhammed was a Prophet. Please choose your words when directing something towards me. I never accused blamed or humiliated any of you due to your beliefs.

The purpose of showing miracles was intented to knock down the stiff mentalities of the people of that time. As you know human brain and capability evolves continuously. And they simply rejected the discipline Muhammed offered in words. And he was times and times asked to prove that he was a Prophet. They wanted to be convinced to their eyes. That's why.. I bet he was not having fun with tearing the moon apart in two - he had to.

[Byzantine Prince]

I don't see any self-conflict in Saturnus's post.

Mohammed might have been a prophet but the way he proved that was with miracles, kind of like David Coperfield with magical tricks, but for different reasons of course. No one is humiliating anyone by simply comparing what they both did.

Saturnus makes a great point about feelings being misleading. Many Christians also say they have "Jesus in their hearts" or they "feel the presense". People just say those things, because they are so infatuated by their beliefs.

[LeftEyeNine]

I don't see any self-conflict in Saturnus's post.

Mohammed might have been a prophet but the way he proved that was with miracles, kind of like David Coperfield with magical tricks, but for different reasons of course. No one is humiliating anyone by simply comparing what they both did.

Saturnus makes a great point about feelings being misleading. Many Christians also say they have "Jesus in their hearts" or they "feel the presense". People just say those things, because they are so infatuated by their beliefs.

You should get the point. I see it is way too blurry from your point of view. Comparison of a guy's tricks derived with gadgets and plans with Muhammed's miracles humiliate me. You may be atheist but should be - as a human being - aware of what the sensitive points that should be discriminated from "the subject of discussion" and "I feel funny today" thing are.

You just explained the difference between believers and non-believers. Some can "feel" the presence of God or the Prophets, and some just do not. They can get how one can believe something that dictates, writes a fiction and what's more, is unvisible and unperceivable.

I can really understand the non-believer's way of thought. You may just not get it. But I do. Keeping the "right" or "wrong" things aside - I never tried to judge or make fun of your mentality as you do to believers, and I will not intend it ever - believing is all about the "being another person". We are all different..

P.S. I did not mention these to avoid discussion. I several times sat down and tried to think about how a non-believer may think, how he/she may give meanings to aspects of life. That's why I say "I can understand you".

[Quietus]

LeftEyeNine,

Let me help you out getting in a non-believer's shoe (objectively).

You were reading the newspapers today. In it is an article entitled: "God's son parts Red Sea". In it a person, Joe Doe, claims he parted the Red Sea and he is the son of a God. There was no pictures or videos of the event, apparently, just a drawing of the guy parting the Red Sea. Lastly, in the tradition of the Torah, the Bible and the Koran, he's writing a book he calls the New Message (latest teachings from his father).

After, reading this, at that point in time, would you believe this claim? A simple Yes or No answer would suffice.

ps. (keep in mind, you haven't witnessed anything with your own eyes).

[A.Saturnus]

LeftEyeNine, it was not my intend to offend you, please accept my apologies if I did. But I do not understand your answer. What is my "self-conflict"? I merely pointed out that a feeling you have cannot be a reliable source of information. I don´t want to belittle such a feeling, I fully understand that it is important to you and that it influences your live. Actually, I find it quite reasonable that you live by it. We all use feelings to let them guide our way in life. But nevertheless, it is not a reliable source of information about something independent from you and that feeling. That feeling may be important for you, but it provides no evidence about the world outside you.
Also, the comparison between Muhammed and Copperfield was not meant to ridicule the Prophet or your believes, though I realize that my wording was a bit hasty. The point is that there is a similarity between those two. Both - if we believe witnesses - have done things that seem to be impossible. In both cases, we can´t be sure how they did it. That their intentions were greatly different is out of the question.

Really, I am perfectly comfortable with what you believe and I don´t want to change it, although I disagree with you. For me, this is not a discussion atheist vs. believer, not even a discussion about God. It is a discussion about what is reliable information.

[Divinus Arma]

Religious texts such as the Bible and Koran alone are not a reliable source of information.

By relying on this information alone you will become a victim of circular reasoning:

"The Bible is the word of God because it says so."

It is impossible to argue with somebody who uses circular reasoning. Not because they are right, but because they cannot apply logic.

Any religious text must be supported by observations as well as scientific fact.

For example: Creationism and big bang theory coincide well: God said so, and boom, it happened.

The fall of man coincides with evolution. Adam (Hebrew for mankind) lived in the jungle without awareness of good or evil (like animals, hmm). The fact that they were unaware of good and evil meant that they did not know it was evil to defy god and eat the apple or whatever. Anyway, an event happened (eat an apple or whatever) which created conciousness and the freedom of choice. Wow. Now we could develop away from swinging in the freaking trees. Yay.

[Divinus Arma]

Why is there no option for "drop acid and just ask him"?

First you have to get past the oversized snake that wants to swallow you.

[Divinus Arma]

sex maybe can you reach a level in wich you can claim to have discovered god.

Wow. You must be having some good nookie. Because the last time I checked, it was just me and the wife gettin the sheets wet.

[Byzantine Prince]

You should get the point. I see it is way too blurry from your point of view. Comparison of a guy's tricks derived with gadgets and plans with Muhammed's miracles humiliate me. You may be atheist but should be - as a human being - aware of what the sensitive points that should be discriminated from "the subject of discussion" and "I feel funny today" thing are.

You just explained the difference between believers and non-believers. Some can "feel" the presence of God or the Prophets, and some just do not. They can get how one can believe something that dictates, writes a fiction and what's more, is unvisible and unperceivable.

I can really understand the non-believer's way of thought. You may just not get it. But I do. Keeping the "right" or "wrong" things aside - I never tried to judge or make fun of your mentality as you do to believers, and I will not intend it ever - believing is all about the "being another person". We are all different..

P.S. I did not mention these to avoid discussion. I several times sat down and tried to think about how a non-believer may think, how he/she may give meanings to aspects of life. That's why I say "I can understand you".

I'm afraid I do not follow your point. So you can relate to beign a non-believer and... what? That's where I'm lost. You "feel" the presense of god, but I don't see how that's any different from any other religious person who also "feels" the presense of whoever it is they believe in. If we take that as a fact then there are more then one gods out there that influence whoever the people believe in. You see my logic?

Also I don't think you can ridicule my beliefs, seeing as I have none. There's nothing there for anyone to humiliate.

[Divinus Arma]

I think Left Eye Nine's statements show exactly what is wrong with all religion. Not to pick on Left Eye, as Christians do the same thing.

The devout just cannot take the criticisms of others. We have the right to say what we want of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or any other for that matter. Left Eye, you get bothered if someone calls miracles a joke? If you believe in your religion so much, then you should be confident enough to agree to disagree.

MODS: My intent is not to turn the tone here. I am just addressing what I see as a serious infringment on human dignity.

Throughout history, powerful religious leaders have killed, tortured, and generally caused hate and discontent. If we want to say Jesus is a joke, so be it. If we want to say Mohammed is a farse, that is our human right. People actually murder over this. And that is insanity. Look at the sitaution with the director and the Muslim extremist. The director disrespected mohammed so the Muslim killed him. WTF?!

I love God and thank him for the favor he shown my pathetic existence. But that does not mean I am going to show anger if someone like Jag and BP says that they are God. That is because my belief is so unshakeable that it makes no difference what they say.

So relax Left Eye Nine. I have every respect for your right to worship how you see fit. But don't tell others what to say or write. Some of your comments are downright scary.

EDIT: I just wanted to add this. Left Eye, I hope you will take what I say lightly. I am not trying to piss you off. I just want to make a point. Your contributions to this forum have offered a unique and fascinating perspective.

[Divinus Arma]

I thought I would also open my little beliefs so anyone could poke fun all they want.


If there is purpose is one single thing, then there is purpose in everything.

The purpose of nerve endings is to feel. Therefore there is a God.

[Kagemusha]

First i would like to answer to the question of this thread.How to get reliable informations about God?In my opinion and limited experience,you cant.I dont mix religion with science.I dont understand what or who God is,or does God have a somekind of plan for us,or does God even care.
But i do believe in him.I think many people think im stupid or weak because i believe in something that i cant even prove to exist.So what?I dont care.To me religion is faith,and faith gives me hope.I want to believe that around us is an entity that has given purpose to our lives.My faith doesnt really follow any religions holy texts.So im a heretic in face of many other people.
I think there are much wisdom in bible,but my belief that everything is meant to be,is against christianity.I think we all have purpose in this world.But i dont understand it,because im not god.Call me stupid if you like,but my faith takes away my fear.And that allows me to be a better person,or even try to be one.If im only imagining all this,its my personal problem.Whether im right or wrong,it wont hurt anyone else.

[Viking]

First i would like to answer to the question of this thread.How to get reliable informations about God?In my opinion and limited experience,you cant.I dont mix religion with science.

Yep. Reliable information is impossible to get about God since it`s a matter about belief. Reliable means it has to be proven scientific and not just a persons opinion.

The only right answer is: I am God. You`ll have a hard time proving that I`m not.

[Kagemusha]

Yep. Reliable information is impossible to get about God since it`s a matter about belief. Reliable means it has to be proven scientific and not just a persons opinion.

The only right answer is: I am God. You`ll have a hard time proving that I`m not.

Well said Viking.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Even though me and lefty eye are of differing religions I agree with him here. Do you want me to start going on about you atheist.......

[Divinus Arma]

Even though me and lefty eye are of differing religions I agree with him here. Do you want me to start going on about you atheist.......

Who are you addressing, zealot?

[LeftEyeNine]

Please avoid provocation, casesar010.

As long as they take only miracles as religion, there is no point in discussing religion here.. I am out..

[Divinus Arma]

Please avoid provocation, casesar010.

As long as they take only miracles as religion, there is no point in discussing religion here.. I am out..

There is a difference between religion and faith.


Faith is believing in something you know cannot be true.

Religion is paying money to do so.

[Brutus]

Everyone here please just read Oolon Coluphid's brilliant trilogy; Where God Went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes and Who Is This God Person Anyway?

It really clarifies a lot.

[A.Saturnus]

If there is purpose is one single thing, then there is purpose in everything.

The purpose of nerve endings is to feel. Therefore there is a God.

Interesting perspective. It may be a little off-topic but we can analyse this step for step.
The implication you have postulated suffers of course from a lack of plausibility. Why should it be so? Further, is it not neessarily false? If it were true would that not require that there are no things that have no purpuse? What about waste? Obsolete designs? Etc.? Should you mean "everything" in sensu composito, it is even more obvious: the purpose of something must lie outside itself, but nothing lies outside everything, thus everything cannot have a purpose.
Your premise is right if unprecies. Nerve endings cannot be said to feel. They contain or carry receptors which react to certain stimuli by causing a nervous impuls. These impulses are used in the brain to generate feelings. This vagueness leads to a problem with the term "purpose". Is it the purpose of nerve endings to feel, or to transmit electric impulses, to let humans function, to optimize gene reproduction success? Which of these? "Purpose" is a man-made concept, it has no precies analogue in the real world. Nerve endings exist and do what they do because of causation, not because of purpose.
Because of these problems, your conclusion must remain in doubt.

[Roark]

I think the problem with this thread is that, once again, it has returned to using scientific tools to observe a being who exists outside of the measurable universe (the metaphysics getting muddied with science).

I understand that an atheist (of which there are quite a few here) has no other context in which to discuss theology, but it just confuses things for everyone.

People who want to discuss theology should discuss theology. People who want to convince everyone that there is no God should maybe just avoid threads like this. I don't mean that maliciously at all, it's just that I think the original point of the thread may have fallen by the wayside...

This wasn't directed specifically at you, Saturnus...

[Byzantine Prince]

I would be glad to talk about theology, but this thread is too simplistic for that. Look at the question, it's ridiculous. How else can you get reliable info on god other then religious writing? I mean the answer is obvious. So I think most of us got bored and started bad mouthing religion.

[Roark]

You use the adjective "ridiculous" a dozen times a week to describe threads, man...

Rather than argue semantics ("How can a matter of faith be reliable, ie scientifically measurable?"), why not just go with the general nature of what the original poster intended to get our input on?

Additionally, it isn't compulsory to post in every thread. If it's boring, why not just find another thread? This board doesn't mean to cater to your specs.

[Roark]

What I mean is:

It could have been a good thread.

We could have been discussing the mysticism (see poll option) of Sufism, and it's contrast to the scripture-focused faiths of Judaism and evangelical Christianity.

We could have talked about differing approaches to the common human purpose of "exploring the Divine".

It only got boring to me personally because a whole bunch of people, with nothing to add, decided to add a whole lot of nothing.

Don't mind me, I'm just having a whinge because I'm actually interested in this stuff.

[ichi]

Right on, Roark

ichi

[Byzantine Prince]

No one said anything interesting nor did the original poster provide any links to something in particular we could talk about like Gawain and countless others do. You can't start conversations with generalized topics.

Ok example: You guys know where I can get info on milk?
- Yes just go to a website that talks about it.




This thread could never go in the right direction, it had no direction. The only interesting I saw was JAG saying "I am God" and then other saying what they thought about it.

When you start hanging around the backroom you'll understand that people here need direction or else it just won't be taken seriously.