pearl harbor

[VAE VICTUS]

at pearl harbor could the jappos have crippled the pacific fleet if they had bombed the hell out of oil reserves and dry docks,instead of focusing on the ships?and didnt they have another flight ready to do that but some admiral decided to get the hell out?

[Papewaio]

Wouldn't matter, the Aircraft carriers were all not in port on a training exercise... either very lucky or they did crack the Japanese codes.

[CBR]

If they had bombed the oil depots it would have set back the US effort by perhaps a year but it would not have given Japan a victory anyway as their industry was completely outclassed by USA.


CBR

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think all WWII documents have been released haven't they? So it would've been luck...

Well Pearl Harbor turned out to be a blessing in disguise in a way, as I don't think the navy had fully accepted the effectiveness of the carrier. Pearl Harbor both proved the effectiveness of carrier launched aircraft, but also forced the navy to embrace them as their battleships had been devestated and the three carriers were the only ships left to take the core position in the fleet.

[Soulforged]

I don't know you man but calling any kind of people slaughtering a blessing is god them doubtful at least. I think you have played games and readed books too much. Even being objective i can reject your apreciation, the attack on Pearl Harbor meaned a lot of things (like the decive enter of US on the war) but non of those was a blessing, the japanese almost erased all kind of importance of humanity above all kind of honor (that obsolete and irrational belief that honor is more important, never an idea is more important than actual life) and the yankees seeing their fellows dying defensless, drawning and being peppered and burned, i don't think that there's any argument that can be employed to call that a blessing even a diguised one.

[PanzerJaeger]

It was very much a blessing to many millions of Chinese and other southern asians. Also, his point about the carriers was accurate.

[Soulforged]

Ohhh of course it was a blessing.... Hiroshima is a good example... the most terrible event provoked by man in all the hitory. Four days later Nagasaki too. Please i don't want to go any further on this subject. Just don't call it a blessing. Or do it what the hell.

[dgfred]

I don't think he meant a real 'blessing', but it did force the US's hand as far
as naval tactics and it did bring the US into both the War in Europe and the Pacific. As CBR posted, it would only have possibly prolonged the war for
a while longer if the Japanese had of sent the 3rd wave of planes to destroy
the oil/fuel areas and service docks .

[Marquis of Roland]

Ohhh of course it was a blessing.... Hiroshima is a good example... the most terrible event provoked by man in all the hitory. Four days later Nagasaki too. Please i don't want to go any further on this subject. Just don't call it a blessing. Or do it what the hell.

My family is from Nanjing. The Japanese tortured and killed a quarter million civilians there. Buried men alive and used them in beheading contests. Raped and sexually mutilated women/girls of all ages before killing them. Bayoneted babies for fun. Maybe its just me, but I thought that was worse than the atomic bombs.

By the way, the Japanese wanted to deliver their declaration of war right before the attack so that it was "legitimate". Turned out they didn't make the deadline, so it was a sneak attack.

When the Japanese failed to destroy the carriers, it also forced the American admiralty to change their emphasis on battleships to carriers, which directly influenced their naval construction policy all the way till now. Had the Japanese destroyed the carriers, would US naval policy have evolved?

Japan would still have lost regardless, as CBR said, US far outclassed Japan in production.

[TosaInu]

By the way, the Japanese wanted to deliver their declaration of war right before the attack so that it was "legitimate". Turned out they didn't make the deadline, so it was a sneak attack.

It's a matter of hour(s) anyway (I recall the idea was that Japanese diplomats
would hand over a war declaration in Washington about one hour before the attack). But why were they too late?

The American 'authorities' (militairy but maybe also politic) intercepted coded messages and figured (after decoding) something was going on. Were the Japenese diplomats put on hold just because whatever, were they put on hold because the American authorities wanted a more complete picture of what was going on before they would talk with the diplomats, or did they know the whole thing in advance (maybe just in time and too late to react anyway) and decided to talk with the diplomats after the strike?

I recall that America wasn't too eager to engage in this war, a monstrous surprise attack was nice to convince all.

[VAE VICTUS]

well didnt void all their debts and then give them millions with the marshall plan?

[TosaInu]

Give a million today, earn many millions tomorrow. It was also a political reason (communism).

[Red Harvest]

I don't think people realize how slow communications were at the time. Even had Japan declared war slightly in advance, it is unlikely that Pearl Harbor would have been able to react sufficiently. Even the radar that picked up the attack wave was a problem, because it did not yet have any direct communication link with the base (as I understand.) So even had the officer in charge recognized the threat, he might have been unable to do anything about it.

To appreciate just how bad US preparedness was, the Japanese attacked the Philippines the day after Pearl Harbor and caught many of the aircraft on the ground in nice orderly arrangement. The Japanese were shocked at the ease of the attack since they expected serious resistance from an alerted enemy.

I don't think naval policy would have been different if the carriers had been caught. There still would have been no doubt that carriers were needed, not battleships. It would have slowed the U.S. response down and it would have left Japan on the offensive longer since Midway would not have happened. Even had the carriers been hit, they would most likely have been refloated (at least some.)

[TosaInu]

I don't think people realize how slow communications were at the time.

Very true.

Even today, now the technical side is lightning fast, communication, real communication can be slow, even non-existing.

[Marquis of Roland]

I don't think people realize how slow communications were at the time. Even had Japan declared war slightly in advance, it is unlikely that Pearl Harbor would have been able to react sufficiently. Even the radar that picked up the attack wave was a problem, because it did not yet have any direct communication link with the base (as I understand.) So even had the officer in charge recognized the threat, he might have been unable to do anything about it.

To appreciate just how bad US preparedness was, the Japanese attacked the Philippines the day after Pearl Harbor and caught many of the aircraft on the ground in nice orderly arrangement. The Japanese were shocked at the ease of the attack since they expected serious resistance from an alerted enemy.

I don't think naval policy would have been different if the carriers had been caught. There still would have been no doubt that carriers were needed, not battleships. It would have slowed the U.S. response down and it would have left Japan on the offensive longer since Midway would not have happened. Even had the carriers been hit, they would most likely have been refloated (at least some.)

Well, you know how conservative admirals tend to be

Yeah, America would still have been surprised even if the Japanese delivered the declaration of war on time; it was just a meaningless political gesture based on technicality so that they can feel better about themselves later.

[Kagemusha]

I think Pearl Harbour is good example of well executed Strategig strike.But i have allways wondered,what the hell Japanese tryed to accomplish with it?Japanese army was allready spread all over Asia and Pacific,and they didnt have enough carriers,troops or transport capacity to strike West coast of USA.Why start something that you cant finish?Im sure that the Japanese military commanders werent stupid.Only option what comes to my mind is that they thought they could by time with that strike.But even in that case surely they should have understood,that in the end it wouldnt chance anything.

[TosaInu]

The Japanese military and the politic power wasn't unanimously supporting the war with USA either. War like, short sighted people are everywhere, sometimes they are in power and command..

[Kagemusha]

Yes.A bad call by stupid politicians.About the attack itself,i think ive read somewhere that Japanese attack fleet had enough marines with them to take Hawaii.But for some reason they aborted the attack before landing them.In militaristic perspective for Japanese i think that was a mistake.
If they would have taken Hawaii they could have also taken and repair the left overs from US pacific fleet and used those ships them selves.Also they could have made a fortress from Hawaii itself.It would have been very hard to take it back by US in the early war.

[TosaInu]

I didn't know that plan was there. The leading admiral Yamamoto worried about the escaped American carriers. He saw the attack was more a failure than a victory. He didn't sent the 3rd wave. Looks like he was thinking in defensive rather than offensive terms from there on.

A link to Wikipedia http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aanval_op_Pearl_Harbor

I'm scanning through the dutch translations which seems to be different from the English text, I fail to find this in the English version. It's about the negotiations part and the war declaration:

The US defense minister would have said: 'The question is how we should manoeuvre them into the position of firing the first shot, without too much danger and damage to ourselves.' Then a conclusion: again proof that America was aware of the danger and also wanted war without being guilty.

[Kagemusha]

You are right Tosa my memory doesnt serve me well always.I checked the composition of attack force and its orders from actual orders from herelink ,and there is no mention about landing force.

[CBR]

Japen counted on a limited war. Most wars are not total wars like we saw in WW2 so you normally you wouldnt need to defeat your enemy completely before forcing a peace on your terms.

What Japan didnt see/understand was the huge difference in size of economy that meant USA would crush them in a war of attrition.

USA had already laid down 7 Essex fleet carriers and 3 Independence light carriers before Pearl Harbor so USA was by no means focused on just using battleships.

These two articles discuss the Midways battle and its (lack of) importance in the overall economic picture and a hypothetical invasion of Hawaii.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm


CBR