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Thread: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

  1. #31

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Thanks, cunctator. I think their ownership of Heruskolandam was a bit of a fantasy as well, according to SaFe they had expanded more to the east. Anyway, redrawn map:



    As for TFT, best of luck as well. I know you'll come up with something special As people know, scripting is a bit of a passion of mine, so I'm always delighted as people look to use its potential. As regards to the map, the EB map has actually moved on a bit from the one DM left them with. Same geographical limits, of course, but there are definitely team members who've put a lot of time into tailoring and improving it even further - just as I imagine TFT has done.

    I think a 107BC start date is interesting, but it leaves me with a problem of how to deal with the marian reforms. Obviously they didn't just happen overnight and events like the Battle of Arausio in 105BC have also been cited as a reason the Roman army changed.

    An idea I'm contemplating at the moment is to have pre-Marian troops set-up at the beginning of the game - except perhaps for Marius own command in North Africa - but only allow Post-Marian troops to be recruited, so you have the gradual change. It's a shame we can't upgrade troops from one unit type to another, because that would have been perfect.

    As for the Averni bodidley, the problem there is a cultural one. Whichever factions can't be used can only be replaced by factions with the same culture, there are too many icons shared between resources and culture hardcoding to get around it. So while we maybe could replace Carthage with Numidia, I don't think we could use the Greek culture of the Macedons or the KH to do the Averni.

    Would the Averni really be the best candidates for 107BC anyway? It's my limited understanding that at that point they'd really gotten the worse of the Roman expansion and we're licking their wounds around Gergovia, essentially subjugated by the Romans. Yes, there's Vercingetorix some decades later, but aside from those few years, were they really as important as they had been? Would you really favour them over say the Cimbri and Teutoni, who were having a much greater impact on that area and could have completely ravaged the Roman republic?
    Last edited by Epistolary Richard; 08-11-2005 at 09:23.
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  2. #32

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    @Epistolary Richard

    "I think a 107BC start date is interesting, but it leaves me with a problem of how to deal with the marian reforms. Obviously they didn't just happen overnight and events like the Battle of Arausio in 105BC have also been cited as a reason the Roman army changed."

    We are also working out the best way to deal with this issue. May i suggest that you aquire two books to help you and the team with this:

    1) The Making of the Roman Army: From Republic to Empire
    Lawrence Keppie


    2)
    First Man in Rome (Masters of Rome S.)
    Colleen McCullough


    Dont know if you have these but they are excellent books and cover this area in detail.

    Good luck

    CC
    Last edited by Centurion Cato; 08-11-2005 at 13:01.

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  3. #33

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Thanks for the tips, CC. I'll see if I can russle them up.

    As for the map in it's current state, I'm pretty happy with most of the factions that we know exist so far, my only concerns with it would be the following:

    - the western and southern borders of the Ptolomeioi (and Petra, did they control it or not?)
    - the Seleukids, should they control Palmyra? Edessa?
    - Pontos, should it run all the way up to Kotais?
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  4. #34
    Member Member cunctator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Petra was not controlled by the Ptolomeioi, it was the capital of the Nabataen kingdom. But i don`t know if that is also true for the whole Sinai peninsula.

  5. #35
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    FWIW, I have a copy of the Keppie book, as well as Connolly and Goldsworthy along the same lines.
    Cogita tute


  6. #36

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    It's correct; the title of Cassivellaunus was 'rix' according to some coins in southern Britain.
    Fair enough, then; "Rix" it is.

  7. #37
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    If im not mistaken eygpt should have most of the sanai, but petra and everyhting east would have been part of nabatea.

  8. #38
    Member Member Narayanese's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    At this page it says the nabateans held Wadi Tumilat (a little west of sinai) in the generation before 96 BC.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Hmmm... interesting. I think that we're going to have to follow who actually occupied the settlement within the province at the start date. I think we have a similar thing in Babylonia - the Parthians held Seleukeia, but the Seleukids held the other bank of the river. We can nudge the boundaries a bit, but ultimately I think Babylonia will have to be given to the Parthians, perhaps with Seleukid banner in the south of the province.
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  10. #40
    Member Member Shaun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    wow, this is a great idea! i cant help out but i wood download it.

  11. #41
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Yeah i like the idea, but EN regular will still be a priority.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Okay, I've been looking into doing the Marian Reforms. There's really no accurate way to portray the shift in the make-up of the army. Marius opened his Numidian campaign up to the poor in 107BC, that meant the poor had to be provided with their equipment, so it meant a certain regularisation of troop type. But this shift towards allowing nonlanded men to serve had been going on for a while, it was just that Marius was the first person to do it officially. Plus, the old style army was the one that lost the battle of Arausio two years later.

    So I think it's going to have to be that the initial garrisons will be old style (aside from Marius legions), but new troops raised will be new style.
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    You could always start a little later than 107.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Could do, but I really like starting in the Jurguthine war, because at that time the Republic was being hard pushed in the south, the north and subsequently going to embroiled in a war in Asia Minor. The Roman faction is obviously going to start from a seriously powerful territorial position, I'd like to offset that with having them assailled on all sides.

    Another thing we're going to have to look into is the type of government in each of these places. As was announced a while back, EB are going to have the ability to install different types of government in different provinces, so we'll need to do some reading on each one of the factions and discover how they ruled their different areas, so that when we know exactly what government options are available to them we can choose the most appropriate.
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  15. #45

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion Cato
    Well actually your wrong about the start date, FRRE starts in 107bc & ends in 192ad. The First campaign of FMOR will start with Marius in 107bc. See here for details http://forums.rometotalrealism.com//index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=561&st=0#entry7518

    The timeframe is split into 9 (maybe more) different mods, each mod will contain many individual campaigns, like TFT now.

    However, and more importantly, as ER rightly said, the two projects are very different but share the same historically starting point. The only other thing we share is NGR's map, coz's it's the best out there by far. I wish ER and his team the very best of luck, and i look forward to playing the mod when it's released. The TFT team come to this forum to get ideas/inspiration from guys like ER who has made some fantastic discoveries in the scripting side of RTW - which you'll see in TFT.
    I was talking about the original TFT, I didn't realize there were any changes to the startdate...and I didn't know about FRRE or FMOR.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    I have a stack of Osprey book scans covering this period, if you need...

  17. #47

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Damn ER i must say that you choosed very interesting period for your mod.
    I just regret that RTW is to shallow to represent it properly.

    1) The Making of the Roman Army: From Republic to Empire
    Lawrence Keppie
    If someone have electronic version of this book i would definetly like to put my hands on it.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Yes, I've found a fair bit on the _significance_ of the Marian reforms now, but little on how the army actually changed from one to the other.

    Thanks dark_shadow we're generally relying on EB getting its post-Marian units correct as we're not going to be adding any new units, but I'd be interested if you had anything Numidian (Jugurthine) or Nabatean?

    Anyway, in anticipation of the Parthian (?) faction icon, here's a map with a first attempt at the domains of Parthia in 107BC.



    I'm particularly interested in whether they held Edessa at this time, and the accuracy of the expansion to the east as I may have taken them too far...
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  19. #49
    Member Member Stuie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project


  20. #50
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    [QUOTE=Epistolary Richard] Plus, the old style army was the one that lost the battle of Arausio two years later.

    You came to that from ? because it was Catulus's army ?
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Thanks for the link, Stuie. I think this map in particular is going to be useful when it comes to deciding the question over governments (though it's at the end of the period):
    http://americanhistory.si.edu/collec...mes/imapki.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    You came to that from ? because it was Catulus's army ?
    Hmmm... no, I read somewhere that it was the loss at Arausio was a principal driver behind the introduction of the new army. But I realise now that nothing to do with the Roman army was simple at that period.

    Recruitment of the landless was already widespread (though not official) before Marius. Gaius Gracchus had already made it the responsibility of the state to supply equipment and clothing to the troops in around 123/122BC - which is where I would have thought a certain standardisation would have come in.

    As I say, I'm really not that knowledgeable about this period, if you can tell me anything about the composition of the Roman military at this time I'd appreciate it.
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  22. #52
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard
    Thanks for the link, Stuie. I think this map in particular is going to be useful when it comes to deciding the question over governments (though it's at the end of the period):
    http://americanhistory.si.edu/collec...mes/imapki.htm


    Hmmm... no, I read somewhere that it was the loss at Arausio was a principal driver behind the introduction of the new army. But I realise now that nothing to do with the Roman army was simple at that period.

    Recruitment of the landless was already widespread (though not official) before Marius. Gaius Gracchus had already made it the responsibility of the state to supply equipment and clothing to the troops in around 123/122BC - which is where I would have thought a certain standardisation would have come in.

    As I say, I'm really not that knowledgeable about this period, if you can tell me anything about the composition of the Roman military at this time I'd appreciate it.


    OK ,
    Before Marius -

    The Roman army of the middle republic was a militia army. It was composed of a number of legiones recruited among the citizen body which were levied for specific campaigns. Under normal circumstances four such legions were under arms which were assigned two apiece to the two consules. In case more units were needed these were placed under the command of praetores or pro-magistrates.

    The legiones were numbered sequentially with the numbers I to IV being reserved for the units under the command of the consules. Contrary to imperial practice the numbers carried by the units were not duplicated. The shifting of the composition of the army over the years meant that from time to time existing units received a new numeral. As units were levied for specific campaigns and disbanded when no longer needed, units did not have the opportunity to develop a distinct identity. The honorary titles so familiar of the imperial legions only developed during the first century BC as legions were kept under arms for a prolonged time.

    Recruitment
    In republican Rome the right to serve in the army was a privilege of the assidui or propertied citizens. Together these formed the classis or populus. This restriction was imposed by the fact that the government generally did not take responsibility for the arming of its fighting men. Citizens were expected to equip themselves at their own cost with the necessary armour and weaponry when called up for service. Those not able to meet the property requirements for army service were known as the capite censi, the headcount, or as proletarii. These poorer citizens were only enrolled in times of emergency and equipped at state expense. Though the capite censi usually served as rowers in the navy they were at times incorporated in the legiones. Extreme measures were taken in the aftermath of Cannae with the formation of several units composed of volones, freed slave volunteers. Property qualifications for service in the army were gradually lowered as time went by to enlarge the potential pool of recruits. Generally the number of volunteers in the army was limited, though campaigns with lucrative prospects of plunder like those against Macedonia could attract larger quantities of men eager to serve.

    Roman citizens that met the property qualifications were liable for conscription from the age of seventeen, though repeated legislation against the enlistment of younger soldiers indicates that recruits could be very young indeed. Up to the age of 46 citizens of means remained under the obligation to serve. The maximum number of years to be spent in the army was set at sixteen, though this limit was removed in time of emergency. Gradually however it became the norm to serve six years in succession before being discharged with reservist obligations. Cavalrymen on the other hand had to serve ten campaigns before being released.

    The cavalry arm of the republican legion was constituted from wealthy citizens drawn mainly from the ordo equester able to meet the extra expense of providing a horse and its necessary equipment. Though a few select individuals served with a horse provided by the state, the socalled equus publicus, most cavalrymen bore the cost of their mounts themselves. The great financial burden of serving in the cavalry limited the size of the legionary horse. To some extent this lack of numbers was made up by the larger contingent of allied and auxiliary cavalry.

    Pay at this date was minimal, barely meeting the expenses for equipment, food and other necessities. Soldiers in the republican army therefore needed other sources of income. With Roman armies almost continually campaigning abroad the opportunity for plunder was however great. This helped ensure a continued support for expansion of the empire.


    Legionary armament
    The Roman cavalrymen were armed in a similar way to their counterparts in the Hellenistic armies. Legionary horsemen were equipped with helmet, body armour, shield, sword and a thrusting spear. The majority of troopers served as shock cavalry, though there are indications that some men may have served as ferentarii, light cavalry skirmishers. Legionary light infantrymen were at times intermixed with the cavalry to bolster its strength.

    The legionary infantry were divided in a number of classes with varying equipment and battlefield duties. The youngest and poorest soldiers served as light infantry which were known as velites, leves, rorarii or ferentarii. These light infantrymen were backed up by more heavily armed antesignani. The primary strength of the legio however resided in its heavy infantry. This was divided in three main divisions. The first of these were the hastati, the 'spearmen'. These consisted of relatively young soldiers and were usually deployed in the first battle line. The second class were the principes or 'leaders'. These men constituted the cream of the army and were normally deployed in the second battle line. The veteran triarii or pili made up the third class and were either deployed in the third battle line or left behind to guard the camp.

    The legionary light infantrymen were mostly equipped with a parma or buckler, a number of hastae velitariae or light javelins, a sword and a helmet covered with an animal pelt. Some may however been armed with a sling. The antesignani used to support the light troops carried equipment similar to the heavy infantry with pila and body armour being mentioned in the sources. The hastati, principes and triarii were equipped with helmet, body armour, greaves, swords and large scuta or shields. Most men wore a copper alloy pectorale, though the wealthiest legionaries wore either scale or mail armour or an anatomical cuirass. The men of the first two battle lines carried heavy javelins called pila, but the usual shaft weapon of the triarii was a long stabbing spear. Double edged swords were the main weapon used in combat, the famous gladius Hispaniensis being derived from Spanish examples. Torsion gun artillery was at times used by the legions in this period, though it may not have been allocated on a regular basis.

    The legion deployed usually in a formation of three battle lines of heavy infantry protected by a screen of skirmishers. The manipuli would initially deploy with the centuriae positioned one behind the other for ease of manoeuvre. Gaps were left between the manipuli but these were closed before engaging the enemy by the centuriae posteriores moving up to position themselves on the left of the centuriae priores. Tactics were generally simple consisting mainly of a blunt frontal attack. First the hastati would engage the enemy, throwing their pila before charging with their swords. These troops were relieved by the units of the principes in case of failure. The triarii were used as a last resort, the Latin expression ad triarios redisse being used to indicate that one was in a desperate position. Roman commanders confident in the ability of the hastati and principes to secure victory in battle left the triarii behind to guard the camp. Given the militia nature of the army at this point and the lack of prolonged and continuous training of the troops Roman tactics were by necessity predictable. Only when troops were kept under arms for years at a time could commanders like Scipio Africanus attempt to introduce more sophisticated tactics.


    The organisation
    The strength of a legio was variable and depended on the specific needs of a campaign. The authorised strength of foot varied between some 4200 to over 6000 infantrymen and the establishment strength of the horse varied between 200 and 300 troopers. In a legion of 4200 this was divided in some 1200 each of velites, hastati and principes and 600 triarii. An increase in the number of infantrymen did not affect the number of subunits as the strength of these was merely increased. It was also usual that when the legion's complement was strengthened the units of triarii generally received fewer extra men than the other classes of troops.

    A legio was subdivided in thirty manipuli consisting of two centuriae. Command of the manipulus lay in the hands of the senior centurio commanding the unit on the right of the formation, the officer of the other centuria acting as his deputy. The hastati, principes and triarii each had ten such manipuli numbered I to X. The other infantrymen were attached to these units having no separate organisation. The strength of the units of triarii was generally only half that of the hastati and principes Gradually new subdivisions called cohortes were introduced in the Roman legiones, probably patterned on similar formations of the Italic allies. In these units one manipulus of hastati, principes and triarii with their attached light infantrymen were brigaded together. The need for small independent units to fight against the tribesmen in the mountains of Spain is likely to have been the stimulus for the creation of these new legionary subdivisions.

    Each legio had its own organic cavalry arm. The usual strength of the legionary horse varied between 200 and 300 cavalrymen. These horsemen were organised in decuriae of each ten troopers under the command of a decurio, three decuriae being grouped together in a turma under the overall command of the senior decurio. Within each decuria a rearrank officer was appointed by its commander.


    The officers
    The command of a legio was entrusted to six tribuni militum drawn from the senatorial class. A minimum of five to ten years prior army service was required before men were eligible for the post of tribunus militum. Former praetores and consules as well as young men at the start of their public careers served as tribunus ensuring that at least part of these officers were experienced commanders. Part of the tribuni were elected by the popular assembly and known as comitiati while other officers of this rank termed Rufuli were selected by the commanders-in-chief. Junior officers known as centuriones were selected by the tribuni among the more experienced fighting men. Commanding the manipuli were the centurions called hastatus prior, princips prior and pilus prior with the hastatus posterior, princeps posterior and pilus posterior personally selected by the former acting as their deputies. Great prestige was attached to the post of primus pilus, the senior centurion commanding the first manipulus of triarii. As senior centurion of the legion this officer was admitted to the councils of the high command.

    The centuriones were assisted in their tasks by a small number of NCO's. The republican legionary organisation was however much simpler than the elaborate imperial system of principales and immunes. An optio served as a rearrank officer keeping the legionaries in check, a signifer carried the unit's standard and a tesserarius was in charge of the watchword. Attached to each manipulus as military musicians were further a cornicen and tubicen. Contrary to imperial practice the NCO's probably earned the same pay as the ordinary soldiers, centurions themselves at this time only being paid twice the amount of the rank and file.
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  23. #53
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    After Marius -

    The Roman army of the late republic is often connected to the socalled Marian army reforms. In fact radical reforms of the army structure were few. What novel measures were taken, were moreover in fact the work of other generals than Gaius Marius. One of the more current misconceptions regarding the Roman army in the later republican era concerns the introduction of a professional army recruited from volunteers to replace the militia army composed of conscripts. Conscription was not ended by the fact that Marius accepted volunteers from the capite censi. Draftees rather than volunteers continued to provide the bulk of legionary recruits. Neither is there much actual evidence for wide ranging organisational and tactical reforms by the great general. The cohors appears to have been incorporated in the regular organisation well before the days of Marius. Although gladiatorial trainers were employed as an emergency measure by Rutilius Rufus after the defeats inflicted on the Romans by the Cimbri and Teutones there are no indications available that this entailed a drastic improvement in training standards. It is also very doubtful that instructors of this unsuitable background continued to be employed after the emergency situation had passed. The light infantry velites were not abolished by Marius, merely being equipped with different shields and continuing to serve in the wars of Sulla against Mithridates. One measure however is very closely associated with Marius. This general reduced the size of the legion's baggage train by requiring his soldiers to carry much of their equipment themselves. This resulted in the heavily laden legionaries being nicknamed muli Mariani or Marius's mules.

    The command structure of the Roman army underwent considerable changes in the late republic. The role of the consules as the primary commanders of Rome's legions diminished, finally being ended by the Sullan reforms of the constitution. In their stead proconsuls and commanders granted extraordinary powers were now the most important army leaders. The restriction on the maximum number of legions under the command of a single general was lifted. Armies could now be made up of up to several dozens of legions. The nature of the army also changed with soldiers being loyal to their commanders rather than the Roman state itself. The fact that campaigns in this period tended to be more prolonged and the securing of discharge benefits by the personal influence of the generals attached the soldiers much more closely to their leaders.

    The legions

    The legiones provided the citizen troops of the Roman army. As a result of the expansion of the empire the number of units under arms at any given moment had risen since the middle republic. Some of these units remained in service for longer periods, discharging soldiers who had served their time and accepting new recruits in their place. These semi-permanent units began gradually to develop their own distinctive identity, a process accelerated by the prolonged Gallic campaigns of Caesar and the civil wars that followed it. With different parties in the civil wars each levying their own armies, legionary numerals started to be duplicated. Legions started to adopt honorary cognomina and acquire particular symbols and signs. Some commanders valued this esprit de corps of their legiones to such an extent that they preferred to levy new units rather than dilute their veteran formations with the influx of new men.

    Legionary recruitment

    Contrary to popular opinion the majority of legionary soldiers in this period remained levied conscripts rather than volunteers drawn from the capite censi. The property qualifications that had already been lowered several times in the previous decades however appear to have been waived altogether. To enlarge the legionary strength legiones vernaculae were raised from provincials rather than Roman citizens on several occasions, notably during the civil wars of the first century BC.

    Men enlisted in the army now generally had to serve for longer periods of time and were often from an impoverished agrarian background. Roman generals interested in gaining the loyalty of the troops were therefore keen on securing special discharge benefits for their men. This often took the form of distribution of land to time served soldiers. For this purpose land was on several occasions confiscated on a huge scale, both in Italy as well as the provinces.

    Service conditions were greatly improved during the civil wars. Previously pay had barely covered expenses and soldiers gained only by the opportunities for plunder. The fighting between the various civil war parties enabled the loyalty of the troops to be converted in wealth. Commanders anxious to attach the legionaries to their cause distributed generous bounties known as donativa to their troops on a regular basis. Caesar did much to enlarge his popularity by doubling the standard rate of pay and providing silvered and gilded equipment to his men. The provision of weaponry and equipment by the Roman government and commanders to the troops remained an exception to the rule, the soldiers still being expected to equip themselves at their own expense.

    Legionary organisation

    The composition of the legio in the late republic was different from the earlier formations. The light infantry velites disappear from the records after the battles of Sulla in Asia Minor, their role being taken over by a mix of legionary antesignani and auxiliary skirmishers. The units of the triarii were by now brought up to the same strength as those of the hastati and principes and by this date carried the pilum in place of the thrusting spear. Ten cohortes combining manipuli of hastati, principes and pili with the same number had become part of the regular legionary organisation. The battle formation of the legion also changed. The triple battle lines of ten manipuli had either been replaced or supplemented by a new formation with four cohortes in the first and three cohortes each in the other two battle lines. This new deployment meant that the legion now had twelve rather than ten manipuli available for action in the front line.

    The old legionary cavalry recruited from the equites Romani disappeared from the legionary organisation at some point in the first century BC. This may have left the legio without an integral cavalry arm. However if speculatores in this period were mounted troops as their imperial counterparts certainly were, a very small number of legionaries may have been cavalrymen. The apparent lack of substantial citizen cavalry was made good by recruiting large numbers of barbarian and provincial horsemen. The Bellum Gallicum relates of one interesting occasion when Caesar had the entire legio X mounted on horses from the auxiliary troopers to serve as a reliable cavalry guard during a meeting with the German chieftain Ariovistus.

    In the civil wars commanders spent much effort in the formation of loyal elite units. This was partly achieved by employing foreign bodyguards from barbarians with a high reputation for loyalty and devotion to duty. Hispanic, Gallic and German horsemen served widely as personal guards. However picked citizen troops also played an important role. Caesar established the legio X Equestris as his favourite unit while other commanders selected legionary soldiers for service in cohortes praetoriae or bodies of speculatores. The antesignani were another elite corps picked from the bravest legionaries and employed in a variety of roles including light infantry skirmishing as well as spearheading assaults.

    Legionary officers

    There were some changes in the structure of the legionary officer corps compared to the legions of the middle republic. The status and remuneration of the centuriones in the Roman army was significantly raised in the late republican period. This was in recognition of their importance to the army. The pay raise for the centurions may well have been accompanied by an increase in pay to the non commissioned officers which would eventually emerge as the principales of the imperial army. Legionary tribuni which had previously included men of great experience, were by this date often young and lacking in experience. This resulted in the command of legiones being given to legati appointed by the army commander rather than to the senior tribunus. These legati had however not yet developed in the similarly named legionary commanders of the imperial army as they were not attached to particular units and regularly shifted commands.

    The auxilia

    After the Social War waged against the Italic allies Roman citizenship was granted to all of these below the river Po. This meant that Italic soldiers were now directly recruited in the legiones rather than serving in separate alae sociorum. Auxiliary forces from outside Italy were however employed on a large scale. Many of these forces were raised for specific campaigns and disbanded as soon as their services were no longer needed. Only a minority of these units, notably cavalry, achieved a semi-permanent status.

    Part of the auxiliary forces levied for service in the Roman army were organised on the Roman pattern in cohortes and alae of some 500 men. Command of these units was partially entrusted to nobles from the communities that supplied the troops, though legionary centuriones and equestrian officers were also employed. Equipment and tactics of the auxiliaries were for a large part those of their native regions. Some units however were equipped and trained according to Roman standards. A peculiar feature was the formation of some cavalry formations as more or less private armies of retainers by Roman officers, the ala Scaevae being an example.

    Little is known of the remuneration and other service conditions of the auxiliary forces. During earlier times allies received upkeep from the Roman state but no regular pay was provided. Other troops though are described as mercenaries in the sources indicating that at least some auxilia were paid for their services. To a limited extent auxiliary soldiers with good service records were granted Roman citizenship. However these grants were made to individuals and were not a regular occurence. Only after the reign of the emperor Claudius would time served soldiers in the auxilia receive citizenship on a regular basis.
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

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  24. #54
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Hope it was helpfull . please tell me if want more info' .
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  25. #55
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Is this your site, or did you just find it appropriate?

    http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/reparmy2.html

    I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, based on my own research into Livy, Polybius, and others, but it is a nice overview.
    Cogita tute


  26. #56
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Yes , this is the site .
    Livius , Polybius , Cassius Dio , Appian and others wrote with contradiction to each other (my English...) , but the site is trying , with much success , to combine the sources .
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  27. #57

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Interesting, thank you. My question was really what was the composition of the army as around the period of 107BC and then, leading on from that, how best we can represent it in terms of the pre and post Marian troops. From what you've posted it sounds like velites and triarii both still existed into the wars in Asia Minor against Mithridates - but were the triarii the triarii as vanilla would understand them? Still carrying spears, or had they swapped to a similar armament the other lines as they eventually would.

    One likely idea at the moment is to go for a mix of post and pre Marian troops for the first few years and gradual fade out the spear-carrying triarii and the velites in favour of auxilia. Perhaps using bonuses to increase the growth of 'recruitable' population as the reforms take hold.

    I think I'm happy with Edessa staying independent, perhaps using the allied cities feature recently announced to associate it with Parthia. Also, I'm considering that the Parthians may well be considered to hold Sogdiane.

    Government wise: well, the biggies are Rome and Parthia. Obviously indebted to Stuie's map above and also for the following from EB member VandalCarthage
    They had 'upper kingdoms' and 'lower kingdoms,' 17 of the first and 11 of the latter I think... but the upper kingdoms were basically satrapies, while the 11 lower kingdoms were variously independent kingdoms that swore fealty or regions directly controlled by relatives of Parthian nobles in the upper kingdoms.
    This seems a good distinction to draw the line between the 'core' style of government and other forms.

    For Rome - I would imagine that, as historically, 'core' government would be the one required for the recruitment of legionaries. As Italian legionaries were extremely similar to Roman, I think it would be appropriate to have the core government on the Italian peninsula (and perhaps some of Sicily) and then some for of provincial governship/client king for the rest of their holdings.
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  28. #58
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Richard, as you know military reforms are often long processes, not overnight reshaping of entire armies. The "Marian Reforms" are no different. Basically, the actual change in tactics and troop composition was a long-term process. What Marius did was to, among other things, remove the property ownership requirement for volunteers to join the legion - they simply had to be citizens now. He also ended the practice of legions being re-enrolled for every campaign and gave them individual standards, the legionary eagles, giving them a shared identity.

    Until we reveal our Roman faction, further discussion on how we should handle the Roman troops in the late-period project should probably be continued in our hidden area.
    Cogita tute


  29. #59
    EB Pointless Extras Botherer Member VandalCarthage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    Epistolary, your map up there as far as the Ptolemies isn't accurate.

    In 107, Ptolemy IX Soter, was actually the independent ruler of Cyprus and Cyrenaica - completely independent of Egypt. At this period, the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt was characterized by dynastic feuds, so he'd actually held the throne in Alexandria previously, and would rule there again less then two decades afterwards. But, at the onset of the late period project, he would rule a completely independent kingdom that included Cyprus and Cyrenaica, and was allied with the current Seleucid dynast - as he'd sent his own troops to his aid... since the Seleucid dynasty at this point was also characterized by dynastic feuds
    "It is an error to divide people into the living and the dead: there are people who are dead-alive, and people who are alive_alive. The dead-alive also write, walk, speak, atc. But they make no mistakes; only machines make no mistakes, and they produce only dead things. The alive-alive are constantly in error, in search, in questions, in torment." - Yevgeny Zamyatin

  30. #60

    Default Re: Europa Barbarorum - The Unofficial Late Period Project

    @ER

    Marius based the new legions on Principes, ala units were still in use but dissappeared soon after as the ala got there citizenship. Later ala became the aux units. Keppe, McCullough, Goldsworthy & Connely will tell you this. This new military system stayed in place untill the 40's bc. What caesar44 is telling you is correct.

    If you got my PM then in the DL you'll find information on exactly this topic.

    Last edited by Centurion Cato; 08-25-2005 at 08:19.

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