You guys in EB are historical geniouses

**Jebus** · 08-05-2005, 19:35

I'm currently mastering in my history education, and I can say one thing: it's amazing how much history can be crammed into a human mind. Really. Before I started out, I too had a rather vague conception of history as a whole, but academic studies really pump you so full of facts one amazes even himself sometimes...

So don't despair, if you too go study history - and really apply yourself to it - you'll be as knowledgeable as these guys someday. It's possible.

**Blamat** · 08-05-2005, 21:36

That's cool. So like, when someone says they are a "historian" do they mean they know lots about history... or is that actually a job? What kind of job can you get from knowing a helluva lot about what people did in the past?

Oh and... what happened in the Peloponnesian war

**Wishazu** · 08-06-2005, 01:19

the peloponnesian war as you said before was fought between athens and sparta(peloponnesian league), it lasted for about 30 years from about 434bc to about 400 bc give or take a year or two i cant remember exactly, there were a few truces etc. during this war which broke it up by a year or two. Anyways the basic motive for the Peloponnesian league invading Attica was spartan fear of the athenian empire, up untill this time in history the Spartans were the dominant city state in greece and saw Athens as a threat.the basic gist of the war is athens couldnt really defeat the spartan armies, though they did have some successes on the ground but the spartan and peloponnesian navy were basically rubbish compared to the athenians, this helped to create a sort of balance which didnt allow either side to really take advantage untill the disasterous invasion of Sicily by the athenians. Anyways mate im sure their are plenty of

on the subject

**Jebus** · 08-06-2005, 08:37

Originally Posted by Wishazu

the peloponnesian war as you said before was fought between athens and sparta(peloponnesian league), it lasted for about 30 years from about 434bc to about 400 bc give or take a year or two i cant remember exactly, there were a few truces etc. during this war which broke it up by a year or two. Anyways the basic motive for the Peloponnesian league invading Attica was spartan fear of the athenian empire, up untill this time in history the Spartans were the dominant city state in greece and saw Athens as a threat.the basic gist of the war is athens couldnt really defeat the spartan armies, though they did have some successes on the ground but the spartan and peloponnesian navy were basically rubbish compared to the athenians, this helped to create a sort of balance which didnt allow either side to really take advantage untill the disasterous invasion of Sicily by the athenians. Anyways mate im sure their are plenty of

on the subject

In more detail:

Causes of the Pelop. war:

1) Conflict between Korinthe and the neutral Korkyra in which Athens aided Korkyra

2) The fact that Athens didn't allow Poteidaia, a Korinthian colony in the Athenian sphere of influence, to choose Korinthian magistrates

3) The Athenian economic boycot of Megara

In short, the Brutal imperialism of Athens. In the Peloponnesian congress of 432/1, war is declared: Sparta with its Peloponnesian League and almost all of Beotia around Thebe versus Athens with its Leage, Thessalia, Plataia, Naupaktos, Akarnia and Korkyra.

Several phases can be distinguished in the War itself:

1) The "Archidamian" Phase, after king Archimados: battle between land- and seaforces, each with their own strategies. Athens assaulted Sparta and its allies mostly with its fleet, while Sparta assaulted Attica with its landforces.
After Perikles died in 429 of the plague that had killed 1/3 of Athens, the city saw a political struggle between the conservative oligarchy with Nikias and the radical democrats with Kleoon. This didn't stop Athens from gaining a great victory in 425 at Pylos, though, with the capture of 120 Spartans.
Further temporal successes in the war made Athens turn down all peace proposals Sparta made.
Sparta destroyed Attica and then fought at the Thrakian coast where Prasidas with an army of released helotes and mercenaries assaulted the Athenian allies and in 424/3 occupied Amphipolis.
After the failed fleet assault of Kleoon against Brasidas, where both died, the Nikiaspeace was instated in 421. Korinthe and other allies did not live by it, though.

2) Interludum 421-415: The Nikiaspeace or the "False Peace"
The reconciliationpolitics at Athens were thwarted by Alkibiades, nephew and protegé of Perikles and student of Sokrates. His actions against Sparta led to an alliance between Athens and Argos, Mantinea and Elis. Sparta, however, defeated Argos at Mantinea in 418 and ths reinstated its hegemony on the Peloponnesos.
In Athens, the politics became more radical - as can be seen by the brutal occupation of Melos. Then, the Sicilian expedition followed (in an attempt to defeat Korinthe economically in the West); which turned out to be a disaster for Athens. Athens aided Segesta in its war against Syracuse and its promotor, Alkibiades, was accused of sacrilege when he arrived and was called to Athens to explain himself - yet he fled to Sparta. Nikias, who had always been against the expedition, was now cornered. He and the expedetion under Demosthenes were defeated. The Athenian army was destroyed after the Spartans (on the advice of Alkibiades) in 413 came to the aid of Syracuse.

3) Dekelian Phase, named after the Attican city of Dekelea - a city which had been occupied by Sparta in 413 (again on the advice of Alkibiades), from which Sparta controlled Attica. Because of this, the exploitation of the silvermines of Laurion (vital for Athens) was halted, and thousands of slaves fled because of problems with the food supply.
A new element in this phase of the war is the collaboration between Sparta and Persia in 412, in which Alkibiades was the intermediary. Sparta built a fleet with Persian money, in exchange for mercenaries and the return of the Greek cities on Asia Minor to Persian rule.

The Spartan lack of experience in naval combat, the Persian aid and the despair in which Athens -threatend from all sides- defended itself, made that the war dragged on for ten more years.
Alkibiades, rehabilitated in Athens after the destruction of the democracy ther e and a short period of oligarchy in 411, restored the Athenian power in the Hellespont by his victory in Kyzikos in 410 (or 409, not sure).
Despite an Athenian victory near the Arginus islands in 406, Sparta gained the final victory in the battle of Aigos-potamos against Athens, that was already largely economically ruined. Main figure of the latest phase was the Spartan fleet commander Lysander, who collaborated with the Perian heir Cyrus II: he didn't have any serious contender in Athens anymore after Alkibiades was permenantly eliminated in Athens after the defeat at Notium in 407 (or 406).

It was Lysander that instated the victory conditions in 404: the lifting of the Attican Sealeague; the surrender of the Athenian fleet; Athens had to join the Peloponnesian league; the Athenian walls had to be torn down; the abolishment of democracy and the rule of the 30 tyrants; and the installation in the liberated league-cities of a government of 10 under the command of a Spartan military commander.

This is, in telegram style, the Peloponnesian war. I'm sorry for any spelling errors, which would most likely have been caused by the fact that I'm not a native English speaker.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 08-06-2005, 16:02

Originally Posted by Jebus

In more detail:

Causes of the Pelop. war:

1) Conflict between Korinthe and the neutral Korkyra in which Athens aided Korkyra

2) The fact that Athens didn't allow Poteidaia, a Korinthian colony in the Athenian sphere of influence, to choose Korinthian magistrates

3) The Athenian economic boycot of Megara

In short, the Brutal imperialism of Athens. In the Peloponnesian congress of 432/1, war is declared: Sparta with its Peloponnesian League and almost all of Beotia around Thebe versus Athens with its Leage, Thessalia, Plataia, Naupaktos, Akarnia and Korkyra.

Of course, each one of these is fairly complicated and it is not a case of that patent and "brutal" Athenian imperialism was the sole root cause, but it certainly was "a" cause (though I wouldn't add the adjective). Just saying that the boycott didn't happen in a vacuum--there were reasons behind it, whether one considers them justifiable or not, and there were reasons the Athenians aided Korkyra (justifiable or not). The actual first attack though came from the Spartan side. What makes it all the sadder is that during the war both sides had opportunities to end it and somewhat resolve some of their goals, but both got greedy and insisted on pushing on to harm the other side even more.

**Jebus** · 08-06-2005, 16:51

Meh, 'brutal' was perhaps the wrong word, come to think of it. In Dutch, 'brutaal' means something like 'cocky', so that was what I was aiming for.

And I know there's more nuances to the causes of the PW - but I wasn't trying to write an essay here...

**Dux Corvanus** · 08-06-2005, 17:11

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

What makes it all the sadder is that during the war both sides had opportunities to end it and somewhat resolve some of their goals, but both got greedy and insisted on pushing on to harm the other side even more.

You have described the vicious nature of war itself.

In fact, Peloponnesian war marked the decadence of the free poleis, and the arise of a new kind of unified and centralized state (koinon), encarnated in Phillip II's Makedonia.

**Jebus** · 08-06-2005, 19:30

Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus

You have described the vicious nature of war itself.

Yeah well. You have to look at it from this side: if there was no war, they'd be no Rome: Total War.

That kinda makes all those millions of deaths worth it.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 08-06-2005, 01:41

Originally Posted by Blamat

That's cool. So like, when someone says they are a "historian" do they mean they know lots about history... or is that actually a job? What kind of job can you get from knowing a helluva lot about what people did in the past?

You can teach for one.

Other jobs still require further skills - more ability in some areas can get you into museum work, in others can get you into guide work, in others can get you into writing historical fiction or such things, and still in others can get you into game development, theoretically.