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Thread: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Anti-dhimmitude in Holland. Why aren't other countries doing more of this? From Expatica, with thanks to Nicolei:

    AMSTERDAM — A cleric from a Rotterdam mosque has become the fourth imam to be ordered out of the Netherlands, it has been reported.

    The fourth man was brought to an airport on Thursday, the biggest selling daily newspaper in the Netherlands, De Telegraaf, reported.

    Although he was not named, the newspaper cited "well-informed sources" identifying him as an imam at Iskender Pasa Camii mosque on the Insulindestraat in the Rotterdam district of Bergpolder.

    He was being expelled after being found to have provoked hatred and inciting people to jihad or holy war.
    And

    Exporting What You Imported

    In the case of Europe, it's radical Muslim Imans and their followers. (H/T Captain Ed)

    Countries across Europe are working to expel radical Islamic clerics who glorify and condone acts of terrorism, in hopes of stemming the tide of extremism among impressionable Muslim youth.
    France deported an imam to his native Algeria on Friday for incendiary sermons at mosques in Paris, and at least eight more extremist clerics are expected to be banished in the coming weeks.

    Italy expelled eight fundamentalist Palestinian preachers on Tuesday for not holding proper residency permits, Italian news agency ANSA reported.

    The British Home Office announced recently that it will introduce an anti-terror bill that criminalizes "indirect incitement of terrorism," and is creating a database to identify those who preach intolerance and run Web sites promoting jihad, or holy war.

    The measures, adopted after the July 7 London transit bombings, are part of a campaign across Europe to root out extremist imams who help radicalize disenchanted Muslim youths and recruit them for violent causes.

    The Europeans may finally be waking up to the dangers of immigration without integration. This is not just a war of bombs and words, it's a culture war above all. The western nations are under siege by Islamic extremists in Europe. The British culture is dwindling at the hands of even nonviolent immigrants and the multicultural European Union. France, Germany and Italy are similarly struggling to maintain any national identity. The United States is facing wave after wave of latin immigrants that don't want to join our culture, but rather replace it with their own.

    In the melting pot analogy so often used, each new wave of immigrants, the Irish, the Germans, the Italians...brought flavor to the pot, they brought celebrations, food choices and colorful histories, while embracing the English speaking American culture, with its Bristish foundation and frontier ruggedness. It seems now that certain cultures are using emmigration as a tool, as a means to spread their own culture, and to slowly weaken other cultures. Exactly which cultures are imperialist? Which cultures exclude and denigrate others? The Europeans may finally be responding appropritately to this assault on their culture. Hopefully these steps will spare their people from assaults as well.
    Its about time these bums were sent home.
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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Gah! How can you send them home! They just want to participate in the dream of Western society!

    The United States is facing wave after wave of latin immigrants that don't want to join our culture, but rather replace it with their own.
    And why is this happening? Ah yes... diversity. The mother of everything good. Wait... that's not true.

    But we can't keep them out...? Yeah right. What happened to tightening borders? Or am I being racist this fine Saturday morning?

    Edit: But I'm also not so sure this is true. I don't know how many people want to bring Mexico here. I think they left for a reason.

    Azi
    Last edited by Azi Tohak; 08-07-2005 at 06:08.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Its the right way to pick up these hate preachers and kick them hell out of our countries.This way we dont have to attack the whole community,but the individuals who are responsible of spreading the exremism.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive
    From Expatica,
    From Expatica , Dutch expel fifth person , oh but he isn't a Muslim , he is a Belgian Nazi being expelled for provocing hatred and inciting people .

    I do like this bit from the first article....
    "indirect incitement of terrorism,"
    ...now , can anyone tell me what the hell that means?

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
    Gah! How can you send them home! They just want to participate in the dream of Western society!



    And why is this happening? Ah yes... diversity. The mother of everything good. Wait... that's not true.

    But we can't keep them out...? Yeah right. What happened to tightening borders? Or am I being racist this fine Saturday morning?
    I vote for the latter, although I would call it prejudiced rather than racist. There is nothing wrong with immigrants wanting to maintain links with their culture. It takes time to assimilate. Look at the history of immigration in the U.S. The same things you are saying now have been said about every successive large group of immigrants. The Irish, the Germans, the Italians, etc. Chances are that your ancestors arrived in some wave of immigrants looking for a better life.

    It is a rather prejudiced view that immigrants have nothing worth sharing from their own cultures. I'm not willing to give up all the contributions that came from immigrant cultures. The attitude you are expressing is the same one that was used to severely punish native american children for using their own language at any time. I can see no reason why folks should not be allowed to retain their own culture.

    What you are saying reminds me of the old joke:
    What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual.
    What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual
    What do you call someone who speaks only one language? An American

    Tightening the borders against *illegal* immigration is just fine with me. Unfortunately, there has not been much effort to fund it, so either the GOP doesn't see the same threat you do, or they fear angering the second largest and fastest growing segment of the population. Regardless, tightening the borders won't stop the flow unless the incentives are removed, and/or the chance of success becomes far worse.

    As for expelling those preaching hatred (the original topic), I'm all for it.

    P.S. Being Kansas born myself, I was wondering if you've ever lived in a truly multi-lingual, multi-ethnic neighborhood. (And no, I wouldn't consider a college campus to qualify.) When I lived out in Western Kansas as a child my exposure to other cultures was limited to a few families of Mexican farm workers.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive
    From Expatica,
    From Expatica , Dutch expel fifth person , oh but he isn't a Muslim , he is a Belgian Nazi being expelled for provocing hatred and inciting people .
    Excellent!

    I do like this bit from the first article....
    "indirect incitement of terrorism,"
    ...now , can anyone tell me what the hell that means?
    I'm guessing that it is encouraging others to "kill the infidels" through any means. It would be interesting to hear what the indirect incitement was though.
    Last edited by Red Harvest; 08-06-2005 at 18:32.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive
    From Expatica,
    From Expatica , Dutch expel fifth person , oh but he isn't a Muslim , he is a Belgian Nazi being expelled for provocing hatred and inciting people .
    Good for them again then. Anyone who preaches this sort of hate should suffer the same fate. Yes even a Christain priest who would preach harm to homosexuals. If he is from that country he should be imprisoned.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    No indirect incitement means if you say " I oppose abortion" you are indirectly inciting people to bomb abortion clinics , if you say " I think the Kurds should have their own state " you are indirectly inciting Kurdish terrorists , if you speak for or against a united Ireland you are caught both ways , same as if you speak in favour of Israel or Palestine or for/against Castro .
    The new proposed legislation is a very bad joke and completely unworkable , as for the "glorifying or justifying" bit of it , that means that most people celebrating their independance day would be guilty .

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    I doubt that. It is not indirect incitement to say one opposes something. There would have to be some other aspect to it. The question is what? Encouraging members to join jihadist groups? Encouraging them to fund terror groups? Or perhaps praising Osama and A.Q. actions?
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    I vote for the latter, although I would call it prejudiced rather than racist. There is nothing wrong with immigrants wanting to maintain links with their culture. It takes time to assimilate. Look at the history of immigration in the U.S. The same things you are saying now have been said about every successive large group of immigrants. The Irish, the Germans, the Italians, etc. Chances are that your ancestors arrived in some wave of immigrants looking for a better life.

    It is a rather prejudiced view that immigrants have nothing worth sharing from their own cultures. I'm not willing to give up all the contributions that came from immigrant cultures. The attitude you are expressing is the same one that was used to severely punish native american children for using their own language at any time. I can see no reason why folks should not be allowed to retain their own culture.

    What you are saying reminds me of the old joke:
    What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual.
    What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual
    What do you call someone who speaks only one language? An American

    Tightening the borders against *illegal* immigration is just fine with me. Unfortunately, there has not been much effort to fund it, so either the GOP doesn't see the same threat you do, or they fear angering the second largest and fastest growing segment of the population. Regardless, tightening the borders won't stop the flow unless the incentives are removed, and/or the chance of success becomes far worse.

    As for expelling those preaching hatred (the original topic), I'm all for it.

    P.S. Being Kansas born myself, I was wondering if you've ever lived in a truly multi-lingual, multi-ethnic neighborhood. (And no, I wouldn't consider a college campus to qualify.) When I lived out in Western Kansas as a child my exposure to other cultures was limited to a few families of Mexican farm workers.
    You are quite right Red. It does take a while and I wasn't being fair this morning. I don't think that article is true. I don't know if Mexicans want to replace the US with Mexico Norte. They did come here for a reason afterall. Their ghettos or buroughs or whatever you want to call them are no different than what happened when Europeans moved in.

    To answer your question, no, I've never lived in a multi-lingual neighborhood. Might high school for example was 97% white. But why don't you consider a college campus multi-lingual or multi-ethnic? KSU has a huge foreign student population, and I know more than most undergrads because I have worked for professors all four year.

    In Australia I lived in a building with mainly Hong Kong or Taiwan students... that was interesting...

    Azi

    P.S. I also speak Spanish.
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    I doubt that. It is not indirect incitement to say one opposes something. There would have to be some other aspect to it. The question is what?
    Yes Red , the question is what ?
    Do these new proposals only apply to Muslims?
    For example , if a "Christian" clergyman were to purchase and restore a ship that had been used to smuggle weapons to a terrorist organisation and put it on public display , would that not be an indirect incitement in support of those terrorists , would that not "glorify or Justify" terrorism ?
    How about if a government arrested someone who bombs tourist resorts or airliners yet hesitates over taking action because they support his cause and he used to be doing it for them in the first place , isn't that justifying terrorism ?
    What about a Prime Minister who attends rememberance services to celebrate the "martydom" of past terrorists , is that not indirect incitement to todays terrorists ?
    Or is it , as I said at the start of this post , only applicable to Muslims ?

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    Robber Baron Member Brutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    About "indirect incitement", the Dutch like to keep these things as vague and unintelligeble as possible, so it probably means he said that he didn't like all the things we westerners do... Anyway, don't take it too seriously. I am not familiar with expatica, but the "Telegraaf" is actually the worst newspaper in the Netherlands (which is exactly one of the reasons so many people read it: it's spectacular and often faulty). As I take a closer look at it, this message is from 24 february, no other newspaper reported it, the mosque involved denied anything had happened and accused the Telegraaf of slander and the Dutch Immigration and Naturalisation Service (IND) knew nothing of the event. As our newspapers have the fine habit of not telling us the end of such a story, I don't know what eventually happened, but it seems to have been not true. (However, our minister of foreigner-affairs and integration, Rita Verdonk, has indeed expelled three imams from Eindhoven who were "sowing hatred")

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    I am not familiar with expatica,
    Brutus , it is a media service aimed at British expatriates living in continental Europe .

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    Robber Baron Member Brutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Ah, thank you.

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    People committing hate crimes should be expelled....

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    What happens when the person is a native that is inciting hatred? Can the US expel the native neo Nazis, and other racists?

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Like I said put them in jail.
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Like I said put them in jail.
    Yes , but who , on what charges and for how long ?
    Or is it to be a case of ....anyone , who needs charges anyway , indefinately .
    Gawain your writings on this public forum would be enough to condemn you under these new frameworks , as would mine or most of the other backroom posters .
    Should expressing an opinion mean an indefinate detention or expultion ?

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Like I said put them in jail.
    Yes , but who , on what charges and for how long ?
    Or is it to be a case of ....anyone , who needs charges anyway , indefinately .
    Gawain your writings on this public forum would be enough to condemn you under these new frameworks , as would mine or most of the other backroom posters .
    Should expressing an opinion mean an indefinate detention or expultion ?
    I think that house arrest with no access to internet is enough for Gawain.....

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    I think that house arrest with no access to internet is enough for Gawain.....
    Ah but Bmollson that was already provided for under old measures if he was a real terrorist or terrorist supporter , these new proposals being bought in in some countries mean those restrictions can be applied to absolutely anyone at all .

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    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    I can't say I agree with kicking people out of a country for holding ideas. Now if they say "go here, you will find people who can teach you to kill the infidel" yes they should be punished. Even demanding people should be killed should be punished. But an "I believe that insert whacko speach about Jews/Christians/Blacks/Gypsies/other minority being inferior and ignore them, don't intermarry, ect." then I believe it is their right to hate whomever the hell the want, so long as they don't go about harming or threatening them. Their right to free speech.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
    To answer your question, no, I've never lived in a multi-lingual neighborhood. Might high school for example was 97% white. But why don't you consider a college campus multi-lingual or multi-ethnic? KSU has a huge foreign student population, and I know more than most undergrads because I have worked for professors all four year.

    In Australia I lived in a building with mainly Hong Kong or Taiwan students... that was interesting...

    Azi

    P.S. I also speak Spanish.
    College is an unusual environment. You get some exposure to multi-ethnicity, but it tends to be a sliver of age groups and educational backgrounds rather than a full community. It's not the same as living in a neighborhood or region with a mixture of families, children, businesses, TV, advertising, etc. that is focusing on a full community (or communities.)
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    i'm living in a multicultural neighbourhood, and i'm having no trouble. its just here everyone is afraid for everybody that doesnt looks like them. nomatter if he;s muslim or a white man with hiphop clothes, he's different so get [] away from him.

    in my school when people left for home you had to go through a tunnel, you had car, bike and foot. if there were some foreigners in the foottunnel you saw half the school go through the bike tunnel. they were afraid for to guys that were smoking in the tunnel. thats weak.

    pretty much off topic i think
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 08-08-2005 at 20:41.

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Not much point in expelling people when, as we saw from London, the terrorists were mostly born and raised here...

    ...It IS a temporary solution but it will only make quasi-martyrs out of them and wont stop terrorism in the long run...

    ...the solution is to intergrate the people within communities, mix people of different races and religions, make it impossible to tell someone's religion just by looking at him/her.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    ...the solution is to intergrate the people within communities, mix people of different races and religions, make it impossible to tell someone's religion just by looking at him/her.
    However when its the immigrant that is unwilling to mix with the culture of the country that they moved to - what do you do then? What do you do when its the second generation of that immigrant that refuses to mix with the culture and citizens of the nation in which he is a citizen of?

    The solution is more complex then just a simple mixing and intergatin of people. However it is a step in the right direction.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    These titles are too shor Member TonkaToys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dutch expel fourth imam in anti-terror offensive

    Well, looks like British Muslim clerics are expelling themselves, or as this one likes to put it... "I decided to go on holiday for four or five weeks to stay with my mother".

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4133150.stm

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