The Battle of Kursk

[Csargo]

What was the point of this battle for the Germans? Weren't they outnumbered in every way in the battle. I just don't see the point to this battle. Can some people tell there views on this battle.

[Csargo]

But in a book I read was the Germans had half of the men, tanks, artillery, supplies that the Russians had if that was me I wouldn't have done it but thats just me.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

You have to realize that the Nazi command was not in the best state of mental clarity. It was a sound strategy to flank if you could beat down your enemies position and numbers, but in actuality the Nazis could not.

This was also because Hitler himself was not being informed of all the complete facts because all those under his command believed he would kill the bearer of bad news.

[Kraxis]

I believe it was something close to 1.4 million Russians against the 900.000 Germans. So it was not great if it came to a slugfest. Sadly for the Germans it did.

But credit has to be given where it is due. Despite the elaborate and deep defences, superior enemy artillery and negated aircover, the Germans still managed to scare te Russians into using the strategic reserved slated for the counteroffensive, and nearly wiping that out as well. That is damned impressive. The Russians suffered quite a lot more losses in all departments. But it was the swansong of the German army.

Had Hitler only let Manstein attack after a few weeks of rest after his counteroffensive, then it might have been different. No elaborate defences, no faulty Panthers and lumbering Ferdinands. It would have been a battle of maneuver, which the Germans were so good at still.

Had it worked the Russians would have lost around 50% of their tanks in one battle and around 1 million troops that had been so painstakingly trained up to be better (yes, the bulge had a massive concentration of troops and tanks even prior to the Russians finding out).

The effects of such a victory are scary to say the least, or perhaps more positive... Depending on a lot of things of course.

[PanzerJaeger]

The greatest battle in history... my grandfather was killed there when his panzer was hit almost point blank by hidden russian artillery.

The soviets had their best troops in the area of Kursk and the point of the battle was to destroy them and hopefully gain the momentum they had in 41-42 back. Its really up to opinion if a complete victory for the Germans would have done this - but thats what they thought.

What was the point of this battle for the Germans? Weren't they outnumbered in every way in the battle. I just don't see the point to this battle. Can some people tell there views on this battle.

Hehe, when did that matter? In fact, I believe the Russians always outnumbered the Germans from Barbarossa onward. A German division could be expected to take 4-5 Russian divisions easily.


Kraxis summed it up nicely. Kursk was Hitler's baby from the start. It went against all the Germans had learned to sit for that long and mass troops for an offensive that the enemy knew was coming. The Russians were allowed an inordinate amount of time to build huge defenses in the pocket.

Had Hitler only let Manstein attack after a few weeks of rest after his counteroffensive, then it might have been different. No elaborate defences, no faulty Panthers and lumbering Ferdinands. It would have been a battle of maneuver, which the Germans were so good at still.

Exactly!

Also, it was amazing the Germans did as well as they did. I personally believe that had Hitler not have called off the operation due to the italian landings, the battle could have been won by the Germans, although it would have been a purely phyrric victory. Thats just my opinion though - oh and Manstein's.

When the Allies landed in Sicily Hitler called von Kluge and Manstein to his headquarters and declared that he was calling Operation Zitadelle off. von Manstein was furious and argued that one final effort and the battle could be won. Hitler would have none of it particularly as the Soviets had launched a new counter offensive in the Orel sector. It was decided the Leibstandarte would be transferred to Italy and Sepp Dietrich would personally escort the deposed Mussolini's mistress Clara Pettachi to him after Skorzeny's rescue of the Duce from Gran Sasso. Sepp Dietrich was duly disgusted!

Heres a good site about the battle..

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/kursk/1.html

Here are some of my favorite pictures from Kursk...


Das Reich Tiger


Russian attack under fire..


With air support...



German assault.


Tiger in combat!

[Crazed Rabbit]

It seems that the war would have gone a lot better for the nazis had they shipped off Hitler after he succeded in rallying the population and war had began.

Crazed Rabbit

[Graphic]

Thankfully they didn't.

[Kraxis]

It seems that the war would have gone a lot better for the nazis had they shipped off Hitler after he succeded in rallying the population and war had began.

Crazed Rabbit

That is indeed a very interesting discussion in its own right.
Personally I doubt Germany would have gone as far without Hitler. Remember that he was the one to decide in favour of the more audacious attacks in the early war. Those attacks were opposed by the generals in general (no pun). So it was the those successes that fueled his hubris later on. It is hard to imagine what would have happened really, but the perfect time would have been at the outset of Barbarossa. Then I believe that both Leningrad and Moscow would have been taken at the cost of letting the Kiev pocket slip. But what does that matter? The ideological capital was taken and the physcial capital was taken, not to discount the fact that Moscow was the hub of nearly all traintransport north/south and east/west. The troops at Kiev could not shift around or move away faster than at marching speed because of this, thus easily overtaken later on.

But conjecture... and we should prize ourselves that this didn't happen, or else Britain would likely have caved in after a while...