Countdown to Open Beta - Koinon Hellenon

[O_Stratigos]

The transliteration process we have adopted is (with absolutely no doubt in my mind) the most accurate one (for transliterating into modern English) the academic community in the U.S. and all of Europe (except many people in Greece) can provide. While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.

"In a more specialised sense, a transcription is (a system of) writing the sounds of a word in one language using the script of another language. Any reader of the latter language should be able to pronounce the transcribed word (almost) correctly."
"In general, transcriptions are used to write for the general public, as in newspapers or a general-purpose encyclopedia. Transliterations tend to be used by linguistic researchers and learners of a language who have not yet mastered the language's writing system." Wikipedia

No comment.

While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.

Aye, aye sir!! But this is quite unfair, I only have very few posts here so you or anyone else can look and see that my attitude does not suggest anything of the above or even what YOU perceive to be a “typical modern” Greek. Further more, I have never said anything that even implies that my knowledge of Ancient Greek is better than yours, because I know that it is not.

Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".

Thank you for "simply and politely" but would you care to explain who, what or where exactly "the rest of the world" is? Can you provide us with any sources-dictionaries that explain "Hoplitai" or "Hellenon"?

Genitive plural of Hellenes: "of the Greeks" - Eta's are transliterated from ancient Greek to modern English with a simple "e" unfortunately as the English "e" can represent both the sound of the ancient Greek epsilon and the ancient Greek eta.

No wonder then about the expression "its all Greek to me".. Like I said before, how is one to know when and where-what is which?

There is no "ea" sound in the pronunciation of Ελληνων.

You should know better than that.. the sound ea or even ee from the word “flee”, is much closer to the Greek H eta than a simple e.
Come to think of it maybe you don’t exactly "know better" ; please allow me to explain what I mean.
If one listens to a Greek speaking correctly, one can actually distinguish the sound difference between I and H between E and AI and of course between O and Omega. But in order for one to be able to hear the difference one must be born or raised in Greece, and I am almost certain that the same applies to other languages as well. Speaking Greek with an American accent -no offence- I'm not sure there is a difference between iota and eta.
A Greek speaking English language born-raised, will say Hellenes sounding like Helines-s, quite quicly and softly, whereas a Greek will sound more like E-lllliiine-es, see the diference? Even Australian born Greeks that speak "fluent" Greek but where English educated, their vowels sound "flat" and their consonants are very “crisp” if you know what I mean..
But I digress.. the point I’m trying to make is this; since "modern Greeks" pronounce these letters differently, why do you think the people that "invented" them originaly did so, other than because they also pronounce them differently or else why have them? And since we can’t "have a chat with Leonidas" like Idomeneas said, what better source could there possibly be than a living language that "might or might not" have changed "much-not so much" through the millennia, as to what these letters sounded like? I know that is nobody’s fault, today’s academics use "convention" established earlier by others, but contemporary’s should IMO have the guts to stand up and say "stop this nonsense of sticking an 'h' in front of all these words, there is no reason for it" and other silly things like using one letter from the English language to describe two totally different letters of another language; is almost like finding an ancient skull with a partially healed round hole on it and cry "brain surgery!!".. just as baseless and just as ludicrous.

Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors.

My dear, dear Teleclos Archelaou you almost sound like a dog that won’t let go of his bone, and by know it almost sounds like an excuse as well. Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them? There is not even a suggestion that you might not care whether people do or don’t, because in all your postings you try and explain as best as you can questions asked by EB fans, and been very informative about what and how you do things. Here however, not only you refuse to contemplate whether there is a need or not for explaining how some of the words are pronounced –I believe I demonstrated in my previous post how complicated it can be- but more importantly; instead of answering directly to the quote, you make snide remarks about Greeks and the Modern Greeks over and over again. Well I am really sorry if you’ve been previously harassed by Greeks, "know-alls" or wharever, but I wish that you would stop trying to take it out on me.
The point is I don’t think that more than 1% of the EB fans know how to pronounce correctly any of the Greek words-names used here, like I have no clue as to how to pronounce words-names used in Shwaboz(sp?) until some guidance is given. How "educational" is it if people in a conversation pronounce "Hellenon" just the way it looks and make fools of themselves?

If anyone sees any inconsistencies in the transliterations or any errors that do not pertain to the insistence by some (and it is clearly a well-intentioned and patriotic insistence, but one that I and the other members of the mod and the academic community at large also believe is wrong) that ancient and modern greek has not changed over two and a half millenia, please notify us of those problems and we will be *more* than happy to correct or to try and correct them.

Wow!! Teleklos… you do have a sense of humor after all!! Good on ya mate!!

Anyway, it is my firm believe that if EB fulfils its potential it might even be used in schools in the more advanced (rich..) countries, and that explanations of pronunciations of all the languages used in the mod are quite essential, after all EB is made for everyone and is not intended to be played and understood just in Academic circles.

O_Stratigos

PS: This is the third time I ask, could you please explain what “Aprakteros” means?

[khelvan]

Wikipedia

No comment.

But this is quite unfair, I only have very few posts here so you or anyone else can look and see that my attitude does not suggest anything of the above or even what YOU perceive to be a “typical modern” Greek.

He did not call you a "typical modern" Greek, he made a general comment that stands, and was not personal. The discussions around this topic generally lead back to the same argument (my perception is that this is due to nationalistic feelings, but what do I know?). If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over. EB has no desire to discuss the subject any longer because of this, regardless of your intentions, or the intentions of any individual.

Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them?

We're using accepted academic standards of pronunciation; we have explained them in detail in the past, there is no reason to explain them again and again and again. The voice mod, when complete, will provide the actual pronunciation. If you disagree with the transliteration, you are free to adjust it.

There is not even a suggestion that you might not care whether people do or don’t, because in all your postings you try and explain as best as you can questions asked by EB fans, and been very informative about what and how you do things.

EB members are patient in all things, but sometimes our patience is pushed. Our patience has been pushed regarding our Greek transliteration - don't take it personally, it is just a subject that we're no longer interested in discussing. Our manual will have a pronunciation guide for everyone to follow.

PS: This is the third time I ask, could you please explain what “Aprakteros” means?

I don't speak any form of Greek, but I believe it is a form of Apraktos (if my spelling is bad, I apologize), meaning something like "very unsuccessful."

[Biffy]

Looks fantastic, I can't wait until this mod comes out.

Are you going to be sprucing up the settlement 'close-up' real-time view? I think it would be great if you made it much more detailed, as opposed to having random people walking and running around. You could have units of garrison marching around inside the settlement on patrols, you could have sentries on the walls, more civilian models doing more things like gathered around markets and sitting in theatres. You could also have trade traffic moving into and out of settlements. Would all of this be possible to do? If so I think it would be really great.

[QwertyMIDX]

"In a more specialised sense, a transcription is (a system of) writing the sounds of a word in one language using the script of another language. Any reader of the latter language should be able to pronounce the transcribed word (almost) correctly."
"In general, transcriptions are used to write for the general public, as in newspapers or a general-purpose encyclopedia. Transliterations tend to be used by linguistic researchers and learners of a language who have not yet mastered the language's writing system." Wikipedia

Don't be silly, we have to transliterate not because our Greek linguists don't know Greek, but because we are making EB (at least for the moment) for an English speaking audience and using a game engine that (at least for most of our memebers and fans) uses the English alphabet.

[Chester]

O Strategos, What are you going on about? Pronounciation of two words?

[O_Stratigos]

Don't be silly, we have to transliterate not because our Greek linguists don't know Greek, but because we are making EB (at least for the moment) for an English speaking audience and using a game engine that (at least for most of our memebers and fans) uses the English alphabet.

I can’t believe that you actually thought that I posted this quote implying that they don’t know the language!! That would have been really silly of me indeed… the reason for the quote is "transcription" maybe a better way to go for ease of pronunciation than using "transliteration". It says that one "should be able to pronounce the transcribed words 'almost' correctly" and since I am no linguist to know if that’s true or not, I said: No comment. At worst I was expecting a dressing down as to why "transliteration" is far superior to "transcription" and-or that I had no idea of what I was talking about, which wouldn't have been far from the truth!

BTW did you read my whole post or did you just miss this?

Further more, I have never said anything that even implies that my knowledge of Ancient Greek is better than yours, because I know that it is not.

Why do people sometimes see or assume the worst in everything, is something that I will never understand.

Now please let me say this; at my age, my "philosophy" can be summed up in two things: show respect for everybody until they show that they don’t deserve it (don’t even think that applies here), and that people are divided in to two categories: good people and the rest. Personally I don’t give a ding-dong about nationalities, color or creed and when I post something I mean what I say and I say what I mean without implications, hidden agendas or any of this nonsense. If there is anything that might even "look" like this nonsense believe me it is completely unintentional, I think in Greek and I write in English and some times it might not "come out" as intended.

So, I am going to say what I feel I must say and if I get banned, so be it.

Please take a look here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6&page=2&pp=20 and see the answers to hormiga’s questions, like this one from QwertyMIDX "People like you give us hope Hormiga, we do really appreciate someone taking a serious intrest in our names."
Or here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...9&page=2&pp=20 and check out Argadil’s replies, you can also look in this forum for Q&A about other unit and factions names like Sweboz, Casse etc.
In comparison, when I questioned the origins of Hoplitai and Hellenon I get this reply:
"Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".

Is this a fair answer to a legitimate question considering these other answers or is there something else going on? I don’t mind if in Teleclos Arhelaou’s replies there is a “dig” here and there (IF there is any), that’s fine by me considering our "other" run-in (I for one don’t hold any grudges) so if its personal, he doesn’t like me or whatever that’s ok, but "collective Greek guilt" is simply annoying.

This was quoted from my earlier post: "As you can see it is not as easy as one might think and I believe that some kind of explanation should have been given by the EB team about the origins and pronunciation of some of the names-words".
This was the reply: "Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors. We probably wouldn't have a problem here if we just put the ancient Greek characters themselves up there instead of the engish transliterations, but unfortunately we have made the decision a long time ago to force all other languages to be transliterated into English instead of trying to use other alphabets (even when we could, like with Greek)".
What does all these have to do with what I posted? But let's continue.

My reply to this: "Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them?"
Then khevlan posted this quoting the above: "We're using accepted academic standards of pronunciation; we have explained them in detail in the past, there is no reason to explain them again and again and again".

As you can see, I never questioned the pronunciation, what I said was that there might be a need for an explanation for it, which obviously I don’t need myself for Greek but I do for Sweboz for example, then later on he says that a guide will be issued and of course had I known that I would not have made the suggestion in the first place.

So what the hell is going on? Is anybody actually reading the posts fully before replying?

I also find this statement by khelvan to be totally out of character and totally inappropriate whether its about Greeks, Indians or Zulu.

"The discussions around this topic generally lead back to the same argument (my perception is that this is due to nationalistic feelings, but what do I know?). If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over."

So I am damned if I am in this group and damned if I am not, since I AM Greek.. and I repeat, totally out of character and totally inappropriate considering also that regarding "made the same argument over and over" I’ve spent more than three hours looking at threads, and apart from "my argument-debate" (as O_Megas) about Arche Seleukeia, the rest of the "Greek arguments" are more or less like the arguments for any other faction, so what is this really all about?

Maybe I am just too naïve.. I don’t know.. but I have no idea of what’s going on.

O_Stratigos

[khelvan]

Stratigos, I guess you didn't read the part of my post that said not to take it personally. That should clue you in that my statement was not directed at you, when I make generalizations. I told you that it isn't anything personal, that we are simply no longer discussing the Greek transliteration. At some later date we may revisit this.

Again, don't take it personally. Relax. There is no need to play the martyr here, nor to write pages worth of defense of yourself. You're not under attack. If you want to respond to me, try to keep it to two paragraphs, I find concise discussions are much easier to read.

Cheers!

Edit: Just so we are clear, I was trying to indicate to you in my post why we weren't going to discuss things anymore. I was not making a statement that includes you in it. Unlike the Germanic and other languages, our Greek has been hounded over and over for months. So yes, we're going to react differently, and we have decided that it practically takes more time to discuss the Greek than it does to make the mod, and it just isn't something we want to do at this time.

[Idomeneas]

Stratigos, I guess you didn't read the part of my post that said not to take it personally. That should clue you in that my statement was not directed at you, when I make generalizations. I told you that it isn't anything personal, that we are simply no longer discussing the Greek transliteration. At some later date we may revisit this.

Again, don't take it personally. Relax. There is no need to play the martyr here, nor to write pages worth of defense of yourself. You're not under attack. If you want to respond to me, try to keep it to two paragraphs, I find concise discussions are much easier to read.

Cheers!

Edit: Just so we are clear, I was trying to indicate to you in my post why we weren't going to discuss things anymore. I was not making a statement that includes you in it. Unlike the Germanic and other languages, our Greek has been hounded over and over for months. So yes, we're going to react differently, and we have decided that it practically takes more time to discuss the Greek than it does to make the mod, and it just isn't something we want to do at this time.

Khelvan it would be better if you were avoiding generalizations in general. You say you didnt aimed at Stratigo, then who you were aiming? its not that we are too many Greeks around...

I want you to understand something and all the fellow members here. There is a basic reason why this whole fuzz is happening about greek or more corectly Ελληνικά. Unlike protogermanic or gaulish languages and dialects wich are dead or altered beyond recognision, Greek are still a living language spoken by a quite large number of people.

As a living language offcourse it evolved and enriched. Nobody can claim that we still speak without the slightest difference from Plato's age. But the basic grammar rules and the sound of letters (the ones that prevailed since in archaic age there where many alternatives) remained the same as skeleton of the language. As i posted before we have certain language speciments that froze in time like hymns. Anyway as i tried to say many times ancient greek exist inside the modern greek, but this can be seen only by somebody who has actual contact with the language and not just through books. Its not about agendas or nationalistic evil plans, its about the plain truth.

What i and every other Greek, i like to believe, try to do here is to really help you since your banner is accuracy. I know myself to fix those names when EB is out but i think is important to focus your attention on some minor things that its logical to be left out since there is no greek native or fluently speaking linguist among you, so all the fans can have a more accurate product. What troubles me is your stance as EB. Instead of saying ''well if those Greeks are tearing their clothes and insist so much maybe we should check on this by asking more opinions'' you say ''The scholar community decided that Greeks including the scholars pronounce wrong their mother tongue cause of alterations through time.'' When you are kindly asked to provide some evidences apart the vague ''scholars community'' arguement you say basically that you are bored to spend time over this issue. You say that you have discused it again. Well from what i can remember the last time this issue was brought on when there were spoted many grammar mistakes in the names of hellenistic units. While Teleklos admited that he didnt yet had the time to look over those stuff you and other members that didnt had any knowledge of greek started speaking about ''dialects'' ''ancient greek not like the modern'' and the whole thing ended in a mess. Im happy to see the names corected after Teleklos completed his work. What annoyed me that time was that you could say ''Hey we havent looked over that yet'' instead of raising a wall saying inaccurate things. The same thing annoyes me now.

Stratigos is basically right about transliteration in general non greek users will have a very distort view of Greek pronounciation. In vanilla RTW the unit Hoplite when selected instead of hopleetes cry ''hoplaits''. That is a proof of transliteration traps for english speakers. Instead of brushing him away better consider what he says.

Anyway i think the most proper person for this conversation would be Teleklos since he is the Greek expert and apart those minor things he is doing a fine job. The only reason i quote you is that you answered instead of him as his representator only without any expertise on the subject. I understand you try to defend EB. But have in mind that me and other greeks posting here (imo offcourse) dont try to offend you, dont question your studies, certainly dont have secret agendas or any nationalistic plans. Only try help you do a better mod. I would appreciate if i wasnt treated as a 13 year old fanatic trying to pass modern street slang as the language of Socrates. This is not the case here.

To end this, if you have an undisputted source please provide it so i can be enlighted. If not please do the effort considering the observations of greek fans some more. There is not point constantly creating taboo subjects. Taboo progress, taboo units, taboo cultures, taboo greek, what next? Maybe you should define what is allowed to be discussed?

I would be glad to see your thoughts on what i posted but i ll be unable to post soon cause tommorow i go to Crete for holidays.

Sorry for my bad english extending in more than two paragraphs

[Narayanese]

There's a spelling mistake in the slingers' desrciption, and the descriptions doesn't make it clear what difference it is between a standard Thureophoroi javelin and a Thorakitai one.

Judging from the previews, the EB team doing a really great job

Sphendonetai:
Historically, slingers were uses pretty well.

Thorakitai:
They are armored in mail and carry heavy javelins instead of the lighter javelins carried by the Theurophoroi.

Thureophoroi:
They are well armed /---/ heavy javelins, and a stout spear.

[O_Stratigos]

Actually I did read the part that said not to take it personally khelvan, but I didn’t really have much choice after this:

If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over."

Wouldn’t you have taken it personally?

I assure you that I am not "playing the martyr" here, not exactly my style you know.. just simply asking why are my questions treated so differently, and I wasn’t trying to defend myself because I thought I was under attack per se, but I genuinely couldn’t understand what -if anything- was going on when I am quoted on something, and then the reply has almost nothing to do with the quote and also (if and when) answers are given, are peppered with silly remarks.
About been concise, well.. I think that "a concise Greek" is probably an oxymoron..

Finally, I would like to leave you with these from Idomeneas

What i and every other Greek, i like to believe, try to do here is to really help you since your banner is accuracy - But have in mind that me and other greeks posting here (imo offcourse) dont try to offend you, dont question your studies, certainly dont have secret agendas or any nationalistic plans. Only try help you do a better mod.

trusting that no one thinks that "to really help you since your banner is accuracy" and "only try help you do a better mod" is implying that you can't do it without help, and hoping that you and the rest of the EB team can see the sincerity in it all.

Αμην, Aμην λεγω υμιν.

O_Stratigos

[khelvan]

"You," in English, can mean many things, both a direct pronoun and a general one.

To be brief, all I was trying to say is that you, personally, were not the subject of Teleklos' message, and that we are doing our best to make a great mod. But discussions about the ancient Greek have gone nowhere in the past, and are taking too much time and energy away from our work, so they're set aside until later.

[Malrubius]

What's the big deal here?
är yoo ärgyooing fôr fenetik spellings?

[Colovion]

i love lamp

[Chester]

That was fun, but now on to other things.

Will Corinth be controlled by Macedon or Greek Cities?

[Conqueror]

Will Corinth be controlled by Macedon or Greek Cities?

The mod is WIP of corse, but this screenshot shows it under the makedonian banner.

[mad caligula]

well odne team cant wait anymore for this mod

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I dont mean this in an accusatory way at all, but im wondering: Why are you guys including "Koinon Hellenon"? If im not mistaken, that is ahistorical for them to be unified. Why not use a more specific faction and just use province specific units and other things to make it so they could eventually become a more united greek faction if they conquered the other city states?

(moving this from elsewhere) - Just to be sure, did you go through the faction description we posted - and the historical information? It's weird that no one had a problem with it on any of the boards that it was posted on originally. To make sure we understand each other correctly, this alliance only includes three provinces - not a vast ammalgamation of provinces. If there are specific questions about things from the description in relation to this, I'll be happy to try and answer them, but a general "it's ahistorical" without being specific is incredibly frustrating and will not get a very detailed response.

[khelvan]

Please forgive our new member, he was not aware of the decision we made not to discuss the pronunciation of Ancient Greek. Please forgive this viscious beating of such a long dead horse.

[Simetrical]

Hmm? What new member would that be, khelvan?

[Big_John]

Hmm? What new member would that be, khelvan?

lol. but where did the post go, it was interesting.

[Simetrical]

lol. but where did the post go, it was interesting.

There was no post. It's your imagination. But a totally never-before-posted-in-this-thread-by-me link that you can use to inform yourself on the topic without my in any way being disputatious or otherwise breaking unwritten policy that I was never informed of but of course would never have broken anyway is this.

[Divinus Arma]

That link goes to never-never land. Also known as page cannot be displayed.

[Big_John]

There was no post. It's your imagination.

must have been the yellow shrooms..

That link goes to never-never land. Also known as page cannot be displayed.

this is a similar link, through what i hear from the grape-vine...

http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/h...an/grkphon.htm

[Shigawire]

Corrected Simetrical's link... (good link btw)
http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/h...an/grkphon.htm

That pretty much explains all the pieces of this issue.
Let's not have it fester in this thread..

[khelvan]

Oh no, don't make me lock the thread...

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=Simetrical]There was no post. It's your imagination. But a totally never-before-posted-in-this-thread-by-me link that you can use to inform yourself on the topic without my in any way being...


Hhhhmmmm.....

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I'm very excited!

[Ano2]

to cope with Makedonian advances in phalanx warfare, changes in traditional hoplite equipment have been made. Lighter armed but faster hoplitai now can chase down and deal more effectively with the threat of peltastai, and the more elite hoplitai have a better chance, with some help, of staving off the Makedonian troops.

Just a question with regards to this, were regular hoplites still slow and heavily armoured, and it was only the outrunners who had reduced armour?

I ask becuase if regular hoplite equiptment was made lighter to allow them to be faster, then surely they shouldn't fight in the RTW phalanx since this makes them go at a snails pace (Unless it is turned off, in which case they cannot use their 12 foot pears, thus makin ghte longer spear pointless)?