What is the greatest military orginiztion of the 20th century?

**Kraxis** · 08-15-2005, 21:33

The original HJ SS division did very well, if being a bit fanatical and rather selfdestructive. The Canadians will tell you that much.

Anyway, how do you guys feel about the Gurkhas? I'm pretty certain that they are about the hardest non-Specials I can think of.
Damn I heard a chilling story from some older soldiers (I was in the Navy) that during an exercise where the knives were supposed to be red markers, they infiltraded a camp and went to every tent silently 'slitting' each man's throat ever so slightly that they all woke up in hte morning only their outmost layer of skin cut... No blood. But scary to say the least. And mind you these were Danish soldiers telling the story and being the victims, so it can't have been bias, as the Gurkhas in fact behaved very irresponsible (what if one of the soldiers had woken up and cut himself with the jolt?).

**Kagemusha** · 08-15-2005, 21:39

I think there was some talk about Gurkhas in Nations of warriors thread.I agree Kraxis.Gurkhas are deadly.

**Kraxis** · 08-15-2005, 21:56

Btw, this discussion has to be able to go down to Regiment size. Remember that it was only by WWII that the Marines were finally given division(s), before that it had been a few regiments and even before that they had been a single regiment.

So Rangers do count, as do the Gurkhas for instance.
Or else we can only consider the Marines from WWII. Not bad of course but it does diminish their impressiveness a bit.

So bring on your arguments. And remember I'm not here in favour of any particular org, but as a true infoseeker.

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-15-2005, 22:01

nd the Brit Army have me so.....careful Gawain

Ill put Div up against you anyday mate. No offense.

outclassed? I think not. We have the Army Air Corps, which has a good many airborne regiments with apaches, and transport helicopters like chinooks

And hwere did you get these choppers from? You do realize the Marines have more of these than you do and all marines are well trained in these operations. Besides Im talking aircraft here. F-18s, Harriers and the new joint strike fighter. You have nothing to combat that plus we have our own air transport fleet. Once more the Marines are pretty much a combined arms force all on their own. Thats what makes them truly special. They can do it all.

THe Marine Airwings are a force in themselves and there are three of them.

**Duke Malcolm** · 08-15-2005, 22:32

So the thing that makes the USMC the best is not actual soldier skill, but high numbers, and decent equipment.

**Templar Knight** · 08-15-2005, 22:35

We should really get a better rifle such as the M16

**Duke Malcolm** · 08-15-2005, 22:36

Is the M16 better that the SA80? I thought that the bull-pup design meant for better accuracy and maneuverability?

**Templar Knight** · 08-15-2005, 22:39

I would prefer to fire a longer rifle, also reliability of the SA80 isn't that great such as sand, water and cold conditions etc..

**eadeater** · 08-15-2005, 22:51

The M16 isn't much more reliable than the SA80 in water, sand etc. Only the AK exceeds all other rifles in terms of reliability.

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-16-2005, 01:00

So the thing that makes the USMC the best is not actual soldier skill, but high numbers, and decent equipment.

Nope. Much Marine equipment is surplus from other branchs.I remember Navy pilots couldnt believe our guys flew in the birds we had. Its the training , the esprit de corps and the fact that the Marines have again a combined weapons system that is self contained that makes them the best or shall we say most succseful large military organization of the 20th century.

It can be summed up in two words

Gung Ho

**Divinus Arma** · 08-16-2005, 08:23

I would put it another way than Gung Ho, although the concepts are the same.

U.S. Marines share an amazing experience and mentality that evades other branches:

I'll tell you a little inside secret about the Marine Corps that I don't care gets out. Once you are a part of this culture, you find something you will never find anywhere else. There are two parts to the Corps: the organization and the intangible.

The organization is the uniforms, the equipment, the rank, the training, the tactics, etc. These are always changing and will continue to change.

The intangible is the aspect of the Corps that you cannot touch, see, taste, or feel. It is that character and quality unique to Marines that each of us share with exuberant enthusiasm. It is this concept: The standards of excellence demand the pursuit of perfection. In everything that we do, the pursuit of perfection is always present. Perfection can never be attained, but we relentlessly pursue it with absolutely ruthless ferocity. And through this pursuit, each individual empowers his brother, inspiring and enabling each to achieve more and become more than ever could have been done alone. So as a group, we achieve the unattainable. We move ever closer to perfection. And each of us feels this within us. And sees it in our comrades. I know I can count on my Marines. They'll not flee before the enemy. If need be, they will die for me, and I for them, each of us. And as we stand before the fires of death, facing down the inevitable torturous pain with our personal stinking, dripping, burning heat of fear... we will press forward. Into that heat. Into the inevitable. Into the fire together. The world turns, your ears pierce with the noise of a thousand rifles, and the rush, the swelling moment of helpless confusion. Press forward. The deep bass booms in the distance. Closer. Together. Sweat soaks your dripping dragging clothes but you feel light and heavy all at once. The heat of the fear. Press forward.

Until the moment has gone. And the last crackle of small arms fire fades into the silence, when the sharp crisp reality eases back into your mind... you'll be incredibley alone. Until you feel your brothers with you. And then your heart will surge, your eyes will blur with tears, and joy and pride will overhwlem you.

So you want to join the Corps? Always remember that the more we sweat in peace, the less we will bleed in war. Marines endure like no other. The intangible of the corps is what drives Marines. It is what enabled John Basilone to stand up in the field of fire, and scream to his men "Come on you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever?!" Inspiring them to charge into the woods against a heavily fortified enemy position. It is why, as the army retreats, one young Officer said "Retreat Hell. We just got here". Tarawa. The frozen chosin. Iwo Jima. Belleau wood.

The intangible inspires the organization. Our tactics change, as does our equipment, and relative strength. But it is this enduring fire in the heart of Marines that sets us apart.

Edit: And you'll be damned to convince us otherwise. We are a self-contained powerhouse of ability and might. We never lose and we meet the Mission to ungodly standards. We succeed and laugh where others falter.

Just a quick note: A Fellow Marine who I work with just got back from Iraq. The region is essentially divided into areas of control with the Marines given a specific area of control and the army given threst. He said is was amazing when you drove outside of Marine controlled areas. The security drops instantly and you can just feel the increase in danger due to controlling party weakness. He said the "pucker factor" instantly jumps when you hit Army AoCs. I can relate. It was similar in the 'Stan.

**Papewaio** · 08-16-2005, 08:41

Maori Battalion

The Arawa Company left at 7 p.m. and was unmolested until close to 23 Battalion area, when 10 Platoon (Lieutenant Vercoe) encountered a few paratroops who were cleaned up without much trouble. Very soon afterwards a larger body was met and the platoon was held up until 11 Platoon (Lieutenant Pene) reinforced it. The Germans, who had concentrated around a

– 94 –

tree, shouted ‘We surrender’ and at the same time a grenade was thrown which wounded two Maoris. That grenade was the signal for, as far as is known, the first use of the bayonet by New Zealand troops in the war, for with a yell of ‘Surrender be —’ the Maoris charged and killed twenty-four Germans. Those not actually engaged assisted with hakas.

Haka is a war dance... those not actively fighting in hand to hand were supporting their fellows by doing a war dance.

– 97 –

They were not allowed to joint forces, for the Maoris hunted them, not without loss but with considerable success. Corporal Kopu23 put his Red Cross brassard in his pocket, teamed up with one of the company cooks, Private Curran,24 and the pair went off together; Private George McDonald,25 a signaller who also had no right to be away from the telephone, returned with a grin on his face and his shirt covered in blood. ‘They got me Sir but I can still mind the telephone’, he told Major Dyer. He lay down beside the phone and kept in touch with Battalion Headquarters until he fainted from loss of blood.

I think you will find that the Maori Battalion has a very good example of mateship and taking the battle to the enemy.

**Marquis of Roland** · 08-16-2005, 09:09

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

During the russian campaign, they came into their own. Hitler threw them at the strongest Russian offensives and they performed excellently. Ive got a couple of books that outline simply amazing military feats against overwhelming odds.

I'm interested. Can you give me the book info?

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-16-2005, 18:02

We never lose and we meet the Mission to ungodly standards. We succeed and laugh where others falter.

This is Gung Ho, can do, just point us towards the sound of the guns.

He said is was amazing when you drove outside of Marine controlled areas. The security drops instantly and you can just feel the increase in danger due to controlling party weakness. He said the "pucker factor" instantly jumps when you hit Army AoCs. I can relate. It was similar in the 'Stan.

Was the same in Nam. In fact you can see it just by visiting an Army "Fort" or a Marine Base . The difference hangs in the air. WE call it slack

**dgfred** · 08-16-2005, 18:05

Originally Posted by kagemusha

I think there was some talk about Gurkhas in Nations of warriors thread.I agree Kraxis.Gurkhas are deadly.

I used to have a set of Gurkhas plastic soldiers wielding their awesome knives.

**Kagemusha** · 08-16-2005, 18:37

Originally Posted by dgfred

I used to have a set of Gurkhas plastic soldiers wielding their awesome knives.

Yes the kukri a nice slicer isnt it? Heres a link about the British armys head hunters.

**dgfred** · 08-16-2005, 19:01

Reported before that the Gurkhas were the only troops the enemy was really
afraid of in WWII.

**Kagemusha** · 08-16-2005, 19:07

Imagine that!

**PanzerJaeger** · 08-16-2005, 22:35

I'm interested. Can you give me the book info?

Tim Ripley is my favorite SS author. Hes very thorough. His work can be found on Amazon or pretty much any other dealer. Ive got a lot of German military books, but I like his the best.

If you're interested in elite German units, id also recommend his book on the Grossdeutschland.

**Zizka** · 08-16-2005, 23:14

Gawain of Orkeny - you are a hypocrite. You stated earlier that the Marine Corps is the best all round major independent armed force and yet you then dislude the Waffen SS because they used armour. You should state what you want to argue, that the USMC is the best all round light infantry amphibious assult force.

You also say that the USMC uses second hand equipment after bragging about how they field air and artillary support that other countries do not even have.

If you want to talk about accomplishments the 3rd US Army in the second world war took more prisoners, captured more land and destroyed more enemy equipment than the USMC have managed in their entire history.

As to the best MAJOR military organization of the 20th Century, basing this on having never been deafeated (the USMC has), never reatreating and few losses I would have to say the Vaticans Swiss Guards (and that is a Major organisation judging from ratio to population).

Bah, good grief mate, the USMC is only great in the eyes of its members. It has far yet to go in order to reach the fame of the Waffen Schutzstaffel or the Legion Estrange.

**Gawain of Orkeny** · 08-17-2005, 00:33

Gawain of Orkeny - you are a hypocrite. You stated earlier that the Marine Corps is the best all round major independent armed force and yet you then dislude the Waffen SS because they used armour. You should state what you want to argue, that the USMC is the best all round light infantry amphibious assult force.

I didnt dislude the Waffen SS because they used armour but because they lost. The Maines dont lose.

You also say that the USMC uses second hand equipment after bragging about how they field air and artillary support that other countries do not even have.

Again you should learn to read. I never stated that. I said we are the only organization that has its own airwing. I never even mentioned artillery.

If you want to talk about accomplishments the 3rd US Army in the second world war took more prisoners, captured more land and destroyed more enemy equipment than the USMC have managed in their entire history.

Its far larger , lost many more men and had many more defeats. Its record of success pales compared to the Marines.

As to the best MAJOR military organization of the 20th Century, basing this on having never been deafeated (the USMC has), never reatreating and few losses I would have to say the Vaticans Swiss Guards (and that is a Major organisation judging from ratio to population).

Theve never had to fight.

Bah, good grief mate, the USMC is only great in the eyes of its members. It has far yet to go in order to reach the fame of the Waffen Schutzstaffel or the Legion Estrange.

You obviosly dont know what your speaking of.

As to great German orgainzations. They loost and are gone while the USMC continues its traditions of excellene on the battlefield as we speak.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 08-17-2005, 01:04

Der Wehrmacht is always a good force, as is the USMC.Tie between the two.

I know what the worst one is...

THE ITALIAN ARMY! VIVA ITALIA!

**Gregoshi** · 08-17-2005, 04:16

This has degenerated into a thread rules/infractions debate. Therefore I'm going to close it. If anyone feels that there more nits to pick on this topic, PM me to state your case and I'll at least reconsider the decision.