What is the greatest military orginiztion of the 20th century?

[eadeater]

As for the greatness of the marines - I remember a little anekdote, not 100% sure if it's true or not, about the marines fighting the Japanese in WW2. A certain number of them, about 100,000 or so, stormed an island and captured it for the US, suffering only about 100 or so casualties. However, the casulties would've been much higher if there had been any Japanese on the island at all.

[Kagemusha]

Firstly - I do not mean to offend or insult you or your country, I'm simply debating the extent to which it was victorious. As for where I get my facts from - I get my numerical facts from any reliable source - if they are wrong, do correct me. Unfortunately I don't personally know statistics so must draw them from somewhere. If you consider Wikipedia to be unreliable, then I have found an alternate source of statistics - winterwar.com - should be fairly credible, no? It confirms Wikipedia's stats in some respects. The total number of Finnish defenders at the beginning of the war was 337 000. The numbers of Soviet invaders seems to be very difficult to estimate as figures range wildly. However, it seems that the initial invasion force was in the order of 1 million - ie. 1:3 However, the total invasion force is placed at about 1.5 million as reserves and reinforcements were poured in to replace casualties. This change in balance is offset by the fact that 111,300 replacements were provided for the Finnish army. Therefore my estimate of a ratio of 3:1 remains fairly accurate.
Nevertheless, the issue remains unresolved, simply because there is more than one way to define a victory in this case. True, the Soviets failed in their objective to capture all of Finland with 5 weeks, so you could say, since they failed in their ultimate objective, they lost. However, following a similar argument, the objective of the Finns must've surely been not to allow a single Russian to set foot upon their land; this was also not achieved. So, neither side achieved their ultimate aim, but at the end of the whole affair, it was the Finns who had to concede land for peace. Whether this was worth nearly half a million killed or wounded is a different matter all together. Likewise, the fact that the odds were stacked unfairly against Finland doesn't feature either. If a big kid attacks a little kid, and the little kid does really well and really hurts the big bully, but still has to give up some of his sweets to the bully at the end of it, the bully still won.

I also apologize if i have also offended you.I just have to admit that i will never admit Winter War or Continution war as a defeat.And majority of us Finns couldnt do that also because of our pride.How we see that if defeat would have happened we would have been annihilated.Thats why Finland send tens of thusands children to Sweden for adoption.So some of us would have remained.And we are we will always remember that Neutral Sweden accepted them.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Japanese might have been tenacious, but they were not good by any account. Id like to see how the Marines would do against a soviet army circa 1944.

The Marines were a light infantry force not like the SS. Again Im speaking of their battle record. The SS lost the Marines didnt and havent. They have kept this up for over 100 years. The SS cannot claim anything like this. Ill give you the SS was one set of tough SOBs and probably are the closet thing to the Marines in their esprit de Corps though theres was a bit perverted by Nazism. Give the Maines the same weapons and then see who wins. Now that would be one hell of a battle.

[Kagemusha]

The Marines were a light infantry force not like the SS. Again Im speaking of their battle record. The SS lost the Marines didnt and havent. They have kept this up for over 100 years. The SS cannot claim anything like this. Ill give you the SS was one set of tough SOBs and probably are the closet thing to the Marines in their esprit de Corps though theres was a bit perverted by Nazism. Give the Maines the same weapons and then see who wins. Now that would be one hell of a battle.

How you see that?I could say also Soviet Guards Divisions never saw defeat against Germans.Only one Guards division was annihilated.Quess by whom? If you are over powering your enemy,that will not give you a claim being a superior soldier.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How you see that?Iicould say also Soviet Guards Divisions never saw defeat against Germans.

Again they did this in only one war not over more than a hundred years. No matter when where or what the situation the Marines come out winners. How about the Chosen Resevior where the Marines were far outnumbered and surronded yet still kicked the ass of the Chinese.

[Kagemusha]

Again they did this in only one war not over more than a hundred years. No matter when where or what the situation the Marines come out winners. How about the Chosen Resevior where the Marines were far outnumbered and surronded yet still kicked the ass of the Chinese.

back in the Korean War when Chinese backed North Koreans pushed UN troops down to the South wasnt there any Marine core units deployed?

[Husar]

Again were talking battle history here. How about you let me pick the Marine division to go against them. Also they lost did they not ? There gone just like almost every other orgainzation that was mentioned here. Can any of you even name a major battle the Marines lost? How about a small one? Your going to have to drop down pretty low on the order of battle to find Marine losses.

Vietnam? The Marines didn´t seem to be able to stop the US from retreating with all their glorious victories. Of course I have no idea how exactly they performed in all those jungle fights.

The comparison with the Afrika Corps is bad, Germany sent most of it´s support to the eastern front later on(yes, I don´t know about the timeframes in detail) while the Marines usually have a lot of support from the US and it´s strong motherland and other forces.

And the IDF are not bad either, they stormed the Golan-heights, won a whole war in 6 days and successfully defended Israel against all it´s neighbors at the same time, conquering some territory by the way.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Vietnam? The Marines didn´t seem to be able to stop the US from retreating with all their glorious victories. Of course I have no idea how exactly they performed in all those jungle fights.

They performed very well thank you. Again not only the Marines but the Army even never suffered a major defeat in Nam.

And the IDF are not bad either, they stormed the Golan-heights, won a whole war in 6 days and successfully defended Israel against all it´s neighbors at the same time, conquering some territory by the way.

The IDF indeed are as succesful as the Marines but then again look who they are fighting.

[PanzerJaeger]

Vietnam? The Marines didn´t seem to be able to stop the US from retreating with all their glorious victories. Of course I have no idea how exactly they performed in all those jungle fights.

Thats completely ridiculous on several levels.

[Azi Tohak]

The IDF indeed are as succesful as the Marines but then again look who they are fighting.

Geesh... I was waiting for you to comment on the IDF. I know quite well who they are fighting, but my point is look at the numerical disadvantage (I don't know if the Marines ever faced something THAT bad) and the equipment the IDF gets. Yes, the Merkava is great, but the IDF has never had the amazing equipment the marines get.

And about who they are fighting... you think the Arabs are somehow inferior to Japanese or Vietnamese? Bad Gawain! Bad!

Personally, I think the IDF is the finest military of the 20th century, with the Wehrmacht (Army anyway), and then the US.

(Humph... I just realized it might a be a little odd putting the IDF and Wehrmacht so close... ah well, I'll leave it.)

Azi

[Kraxis]

Heh... This has (d)evolved into two discussions, Finnish victories against the SU and SS vs Marines. Interesting.

I'll keep to the Finnish topic.
I come from a small country myself. And it is a strange thing that the two most celebrated battles in our history are both glorious defeats of our outnumbered and outclassed forces fighting bitter and ultimately costly fights. One of them has even been viewed as a victory by some (and still is a sort of psychological victory), eventhough it is certainly not true. We are often not able to view our own conflicts with the needed coolheadness, for the simple reasons we have personal stakes in them. They are simply that much more important to us.

Granted, neither were potentially as destructive as the Finnish wars with the SU. But you can't deny that land that your enemy takes from you in war is in fact LOST. And in this case for good. Lost equates to the armed forces weren't able to protect it. How that came to be, be it swarming of the enemy or outmaneuvers (which both happened in the Winter War at the final breakthrough) is besides the point. It was a defeat. Compounded by the fact thatthe political leadership sued fro peace. That is the same as in ancient Greece the loser would request to bury his dead, they also sent emmisaries.
That the country managed to stay alive through the actions of its military makes the defeat that much less hard to bear, and can be viewed with a certain amount of relief.
At best that can be taken as a stalled victory, meaning that the enemy was stalled in the middle of his victory.

Undoubtedly, the Red Army could have taken the rest of Finland, but it didn't. It would be too expensive in manpower and equipment, but after the breakthrough the war became much more fluid in the south, something that was very much against the Finnish defenders.

I do not try to belittle anything, or insult anybody here, especially not those who actually defended their homes. I have always looked at the Winter War in particular as sort of how dedication and knowledge of terrain can produce the most impressive results. When I think of glorious defenders that war pops up.

[Incongruous]

Gurkhas.

[Papewaio]

SBS and SAS British.

====

ANZACs did pretty well in WWI and II. Not saying they were number one. Just a pretty damn good normal Army non-special forces.

WWI:

The role of the Australian Corps in 1918 was indeed a remarkable one. Comprising only 9.5% of the BEF, it captured 18.5% of the German prisoners, 21.5% of the territory and 14% of the guns captured. This represented an effectiveness 1.95, 2.23 and 1.47 times that of the British Army average. These victories came at a cost, but this was still considerably less than that of the Somme fighting of 1916, or the Passchendaele fighting of 1917 or even the fighting at Bullecourt and Messines in mid 1917, and the results were immensely greater. The casualties were more or less matched by the 25,000 German prisoners taken; that many more Germans were killed or wounded is certain but their numbers are not known. Some 623 square kilometres of France was recaptured from the enemy

[eadeater]

They performed very well thank you. Again not only the Marines but the Army even never suffered a major defeat in Nam.

Perhaps not in individual battles, but they still lost the whole war. Now, before you barrage me with "they were withdrawn for political reasons etc." I know, but if they unleashed as much whoopass as they were expected to, rather than getting bogged down and taking huge casualties, then there would've been no reasons to withdraw them. If they had scored an outright victory, or a victory at all for that matter, then the war would've been popular rather than massively unpopular.

[King Henry V]

The SS was the best trained, most disciplined body of troops of the 20th century. They were fanatically, blindly loyal to their comrades and their country, in a way the Marines could never be. They lost simply because they were too out-numbered and under supplied.
But in my opinion, the SAS comes a close second.
If your talking about armies which have never lost a battle, then no one can beat the Swiss!

[Templar Knight]

Special Air Service (SAS), Special Boat Service (SBS), Special Reconnaissance Service (SRS) and the Paras.

[King Henry V]

They performed very well thank you. Again not only the Marines but the Army even never suffered a major defeat in Nam.

Except for the war itself that is......

[RabidGibbon]

Originally posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Can any of you even name a major battle the Marines lost? How about a small one?

Not to take anything away from a rightly renowned fighting machine but wasn't the garrison of Corrigedor in the phillipines to some extent composed of Marines? Also IIRC the garrisons of Guam and Wake islands were composed of Marines.

[Kraxis]

Indeed Guam and Wake were Marine 'outposts'. I don't know about Corregidor, but in any case plenty of Army men joined them out there in time.

Now before more people mention the SS, know this. There were many lousy SS divisions, especially those composed of east Europeans and Russians. There was even a Cossack division, not really a superb one.
The SS got all the dregs of the occupied countries as well as all the motivated Nazis.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I know, but if they unleashed as much whoopass as they were expected to, rather than getting bogged down and taking huge casualties, then there would've been no reasons to withdraw them.

Man your really starting to piss me off. Why the hell do you think most vets think that war was Bull? Because they wouldnt lets use all our power. We were fighting with one hand tied behind our backs and still kicked their asses. The American people lost that war not te military. We kicked ass and took names just like we always do.

Also IIRC the garrisons of Guam and Wake islands were composed of Marines.

Yes they were. It was one of the Marines finest hours.

Wake Island, December 8 - 23, 1941


Wake Island has the distinction of being the only time defenders were able to prevent a landing during World War II. The marines and naval personnel on Wake, a refueling station for the Pan American Clipper, would become heroes to the American public starved for good news as the Japanese advanced across the Pacific.

Wake Island was 2000 miles west of Hawaii, across the International Date Line. Some 1600 civilian construction workers and servicemen were on the island, and they were attacked within minutes of the Pearl Harbor attack by Kwajalein-based bombers. On December 11, the defenders used their World War I issue 5-inch guns to repel a landing force and damage three cruisers and a destroyer.

By December 23, the island had been bombed and shelled for 12 days. Some 120 Americans and 880 Japanese died during the invasion. Public sentiment for the Wake Island garrison was heightened by the first American war movie, Wake Island, which was rushed into theatres within months.

The garrison was broken up. Most were shipped to China, while 98 men were left on Wake to construct defenses for the Japanese. The POWs sent to China were shocked by five random beheadings during the voyage. On October 7, 1943, Rear Admiral Shigematsu Sakaibara announced that he had executed the 98 men for radio contact with Hawaii.

The American command left Sakaibara and his 4400 men to wither on the vine, bypassing Wake. Wake was bombed and shelled repeatedly. American replacements used Wake as a training ground. Only 1200 men were let alive when the garrison surrendered on September 4, 1945. Sakaibara was arrested and tried for war crimes. He was executed in 1947.

[Redleg]

Sorry Giawan its not the Marines that are the greatest Military Organization of the 20th Century.

Several others units have that honor.

The United States Ranger Regiment.

The Special Boat Service and Special Air Service of the British Armed Forces.

The old Soviet Union Special Operations Group.

There are several other elite units within both the United States Military and other Nations militaries.

And your history of the Corps is slightly disorted and baised - the United States Army landed and fought on several Islands without the aid of the Marines. And the Marines were pushed back along with the Army in Korea by the Chinese. Remember the Frozen Chosen - a fine hour for the Marine Corps - but they still had to retreat along with the rest of 8th Army out of North Korea back to the 38th - ie the DMZ.

There were several major Island campaigns that were done primarily by the Army.

The Aleutians
The Phillipine Campaign
The Gilbert Islands
New Guinea

And there are several lesser know battles fought by the Army in the Pacific.

[yesdachi]

Vietnam? The Marines didn´t seem to be able to stop the US from retreating with all their glorious victories.

Vietnam is a real weird situation because it was not army against army it was communism against democracy. And the stakes were so high that both sides feared that if they were to unleash their forces and let war breakout than it would escalate to a nuclear war. That’s why the Americans weren’t able to go past certain areas even though the enemy would have been an easy target, and vice versa. What Vietnam was, was probably the most significant strategic withdraw in modern history. If it had continued there would have been open war between Russia/China and America and allies. Not good!

America definitely had better trained soldiers and equipment but the “red” side had many more soldiers and a near limitless supply of weapons and equipment. (I remember seeing a program that showed a bunch of confiscated Russian supplies from a VC tunnel complex, Russian writing on crates, etc. but they were not involved, ha) while the Americans had budget cuts and the American people protesting over every penny spent on the war (actually, I don’t think it was at the time classified as a war but a “conflict”).

Army vs. army battles, I think the Marines win hands down but when you throw politics into it, who knows.

Vietnam wasn’t an American lose; it was an American PR nightmare. The fat, lazy, and privileged American people have a hard time realizing that freedom is expensive.

[Duke Malcolm]

No other fighting force I know of takes the sort of casulties and presses on to victory like the Marines since the Black Watch and Napleons Imperial Guard.

The Black Watch is still around, my dear Gawain, and is the best.

Special Air Service (SAS), Special Boat Service (SBS), Special Reconnaissance Service (SRS) and the Paras.

I would say those, plus the 42nd Regiment of Foot, The Black Watch, (Royal Highland Regiment), and HM Royal Marines.

[LeftEyeNine]

I would have to say hands down The United States Marine Corps. No other service has such a magnificent battle record in the history of the world . We dont loose battles its plain and simple.

I am sick of this never-ending US propaganda..

The biggest is US Marines.. So be it.. I have the most sarcastic smile ever on my face right now..

THis is not a way of opening a discussion.. It is a wise way to camouflage your [TosaInu]..

[LeftEyeNine]

Hey, uh, if you ever met a Marine I assure you you'd think differently. I'm not a big propaganda nut, but it doesn't take a flag-waving bush-lover to see that the Marines are just.. scary.

Hey, uh, if you ever met a Mehmetcik (we call our marines that way) I assure you'd think differently..

(Copy & paste with a few edits..)

..Ok ok so be it, God bless US and his invulnerable troops.. They are maginificent, oh my god, I want a US pass, oh my, Marines are incredible Mech-like-war-machines.. God bless our offical gendarmes of the world..

[PanzerJaeger]

THis is not a way of opening a discussion.. It is a wise way to camouflage your [TosaInu]..

Actually it is a very good way of opening a discussion.

You ask a question and then give your opinion and leave it open for discussion?

Did you expect him to post his question and then not give his opinion?

You just dont like hearing good things about America - tough. If you think your marines are better, post that and give support to that claim.

How many battles have the Mehmetcik won?

[LeftEyeNine]

No not that way. Infact, I'd be happy to see USA someday, so called the land of liberty. I'm not an anti nor a US-silly. I'm just bored of the ongoing propaganda about US here lately..

After the Turkish Independence War, we were not actually involved in much battles..

However South Koreans still remember the heroic help of Mehmetcik.. They are always grateful with Turkey..

In Cyprus, Mehmetcik prevented Northern Cypriot Turks from being genocided..

As long as they took part in a battle, they never failed.

But do not forget that it counts for the period after the foundation of Turkey in 1923.

Anyway, I am not keen on "Hey, What is the greatest military organization ever? I think we rule.. We are awesome ! We are so incredible ! We own all ! We rule! We patrol the whole world ! We blah-blah!!" subject..

Actually I'd like to be informed about Vietnam Syndrome and the outcome of Iraq occupation..

[Marquis of Roland]

My old roomate was Marine Recon, and he said that after meeting people from the SAS/SBS and the French Foreign Legion on some training mission, those guys are "the craziest guys I've ever met".

This is coming from a guy who told me he only used a red marker (as a knife) in US wargames in the California desert.

How about the Airborne and the Rangers?

[dgfred]

Ah, yeah, the French Foreign Legion. Big contenders for best military organization.

I agree! It is tough to come against guys with nothing to loose.

[Kraxis]

Foreign Legion Paras. They are the elite of the FF, so I guess they are pretty tough.