Big Byzantine Infantry

[antisocialmunky]

I'm just curious, does anyone use armies with 6+ Byzantine Infantry? I only use 4 with an occasional 8 if I overbuild.

I'm just curious about how other Byzantine play styles. Since you have the best sword infantry unit in the game, I'm wondering if I could get away with large infantry heavy infantries. Something like having two rows of 4 infantry with a 4-6 assorted cavalry units and missile support.

Since oyu'd outnumber pretty much everyone else, you could effectively attrition them or something. It's kinda interesting and I'm planning to play a game after I get some ideas for that type of army.

[edyzmedieval]

Byzantine Infantry aren't really that powerful.

If they are confronted hard, then they rout easily....

I use 2 units of BI, 3 units of Trebizond Archers, 3 units of Spearmen/Skutatoi, 3 units of Varangians, 2 units of Alan Mercenary Cavalry , 2 units of Proniai Allagion/Kataphraktoi, 1 unit of General, which is Kataphraktoi.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, BI do love to mass rout. However, I've found with a competent general of 4 stars or more and localized outnumbering, they are pretty good. The only thing that can outnumber them are spearmen and peasant and they fair well against both of those.

But anyway... how do you get that many Varangians for a standard campaign? I can't afford the time to build them en masse.

[ichi]

Since I play a lot online, where there are penalties for pickibg more than four of any one type of unit, my SP style usually has me with 4 max of any kind. In a pinch, of course, I go with what I got.

ByzInf are strong in early and high, when their 100 man unit size gives them an edge. Since they start with low morale they can be routed en masse (unless they're led by a high command rating gen).

So, yeah, you could build a 16 unit ByzInf stack led by a six star gen, but to me it wouldn't be nearly as interesting as taking a few ByzCav, Trebs, Bulgs, VG, Napthas, Porno Cav, or even a few mercs and beating up the AI with a combination attack.

but that's just me

ichi

[antisocialmunky]

Hmmm, that's interesting, since yes it's more interesting to play with their uber cav, but I don't find it all that fun.

I think it's equally challenging to play the Byz with a heavy Infantry army rather than a more balanced army.

[edyzmedieval]

But anyway... how do you get that many Varangians for a standard campaign? I can't afford the time to build them en masse.

How's about modding MTW so you can have the Early Varangian Guard?!

Royal Palace + Inn = the best HI in the Early period, Early Varangian Guards

[Patron]

I'm playing a late byzantine game at the moment and I'm completely pwning the middle east and russia with the 3 byzantine cavalry types.

Byzantine cavalry are my staple killing source, I'm mass producing these in Rum and Egypt at the moment and giving them an armour bonus of 3. Against infantry on their own, they can expend all of their ammunition then surround them and charge into the demoralised units. Against light cavalry or other archers, their melee skills and armour gives them a strong advantage.

Pronoiai Allagion are exactly the same as feudal knights and I use them as such. They perform frontal charges when my byzantine cavalry have finnished emptying their quivers into the enemy, after they have engaged I send my byzantine cavalry into the flanks as they are usually all over the place trying to find a nice place to shoot from.

Kataphraktoi are obsolete, they have a lower attack than Pronoiai and they are much slower. However my many argumentative prideful jedi princes have units of these, I give them a +3 armour bonus for a total armour of 10 and send these ancient units against enemy heavy cavalry, which usually outclass my feudal knights.

I also have a master gunsmith and master foundry in constantinople and am churning out culverins. This saves a lot of lives when it comes to taking down those huge citadels that dot the late medieval map.

[edyzmedieval]

Kataphraktoi are obsolete, they have a lower attack than Pronoiai and they are much slower. However my many argumentative prideful jedi princes have units of these, I give them a +3 armour bonus for a total armour of 10 and send these ancient units against enemy heavy cavalry, which usually outclass my feudal knights.

.

Kataphraktoi are much more powerful than Pronoiai. I used the Pronoiai against the Mongols, and all of my Pronoiai( 6 units ) routed.

[Geezer57]

Kataphraktoi are much more powerful than Pronoiai. I used the Pronoiai against the Mongols, and all of my Pronoiai( 6 units ) routed.

Katphraktoi: Charge 8, Attack 3, Defense 5, Armor 7, Morale 4, Speed=Slow (9/12/16 for March/Run/Charge)
Pronoiai Allagion: Charge 6, Attack 4, Defense 3, Armor 5, Morale 8, Speed=Normal (9/20/22 for March/Run/Charge)

Yes, when both are fresh in a head-up fight, the Kataphraktoi will win by a small margin. If the Pronoiai are uphill, or if the Katanks aren't fresh, the Pronoiai will win. Given their speed and morale benefits, it should be straighforward to engineer a situation where they beat Katanks readily.

Mongol Heavy Cav are just very tough: Charge 6, Attack 3, Defense 6, Armor 7, Morale 6, Speed=Normal (9/20/22 for March/Run/Charge), so it's difficult for either Katanks or Pronoiai to overcome them heads-up. You'll need to use terrain, position, missle fire morale bonus, general morale bonus, etc. to get every advantage possible.

Bottom line: I support Patron's suggestions wholeheartedly!

[antisocialmunky]

Kats are cheaper though, you didn't factor that in. They're about equal in my book. Kats have more brute force and can be relied on to hold their own for a even in a frontal attack. I use them in a pinch to disrupt enemy units in a frontal assault before my Byzantine Infantry hit. Pronoiai are great flankers, but I wouldn't charge head on with them and leave them in prolonged melee unlike Kats.

I personally prefer Byzantine Cav over both of them though.

[ichi]

Katanks are best used when V2 or better, either pumped up or with a high command star general. They do their best when holding the flank - as defenders. They are excellent anticav and can plug a hole in the line nicely.

Porno Cav very much like Feudal Knights, fresh out of the box they start at morale 8 and are great all purpose cav, skirmishing archers, flanking, running down routers, etc. With the lower armor and faster speed they are better in arid climates.

Both have their uses, neither is better, except for specific uses.

ichi

[EatYerGreens]

Bear in mind that I've not even purchased RTW yet (shock, horror!) so I don't have the benefit of the historical notes which come with it and am frankly too pre-occupied (a.k.a. lazy) to read around the subject.

Anyway, I was going to suggest that, in a role-playing manner, you run them in the same unit mix as the Roman armies used to use. They will then be somewhat anachronistic in their fighting style, in the medieval era at least and it would be interesting to see how well you could do, employing this outdated style.

I suspect this will be infantry-heavy. Archers and cav will support and chase routers, respectively, but basically, you just pummel the enemy with waves of unstoppable infantry.

In my current campaign, I still only have one source of BI, the capital, but I've already built church & monastery there and am about to follow up with the other religious buildings to cancel out the morale problem even further. Already they fight like bandits but so far I've only been using the high-star generals (5 and above) and it may be that which is stopping them from breaking.

Due mainly to competing training needs limiting my troop production at Connie, my unit mix is usually 2 TA's and 2 HA's to 1 BI, to 2-4 Spears, maybe a pair of UMs thrown in if I can be bothered to build them. VG's are only in key provinces vulnerable to sea invasion and only one of these in the entire province at that. Seems to be sufficient so far. Oh and the general, of course. Lancers and Kats are now on tap, PA's still some years off (castle or above required in Nicaea for the valour bonus) so this will change later.

The above mix is less than a full stack of 960 but, on the strategic map, it helps me to quickly assess the strength in a province and make troop moves without disrupting the mix of units I like to have available on the battlefield. I think of them as a 'corps' and can even be deployed and used as such on the field. Two of them generally make up the requisite 16 and a third gives me an identical mix in the reinforcements, so any border province where I can't set this up will have me shuffling units around until I'm happy with the mix.

I would dearly love to have more than 2 BI per 16 in the field battles but the temptation to stock up on VG's before they become unavilable later is really cutting down production.

In the year the second swordsmith was due to come online, in Greece, those Sicilian swines, having sunk the ship blocking them, invaded using both of the two stacks I was planning to assault in Sicily in a couple more years time.

Naturally, I was furious and nearly restored to a gamesave but then decided to ride it out. I abandoned province rather than set up a siege but attacked in force on the next turn, as well as getting Sicily as a freebie, since they left NOTHING behind there. Naffing AI Twits. I was busily beating them to a pulp, having killed their heirless king when WHAM, the PC rebooted... more anger and frustration.
The replay was on a completely different map. Previously, I had a hill, they had the flat and I still got them to come to me to be archered to bits. This time, I had a ridge-line but there was a gully between me and their very steep hill. No repeat of the walkover then. Still, the HA's again did the trick, I tempted them to come down and attack my forces, which were basically just standing and waiting, with them going uphill, which is madness given the AI was supposed to be defending. Their King nearly managed to escape but, bizarrely, changed his mind, came back for more, only to be greeted by 3 TA's firing at him, my spears and eventually, a charge by the general's Kat's, from the rear. Deader. I didn't get to see much of their second stack, my 2 VG's had chased a bunch of the first lot into the woods and just sat there absorbing the reinforcements as they entered and lost less than 10 men each by the end. A walkover battle and the heirless faction is history, so no more worries about their annoying ships. Just annoyed about the rebuild time required to get back to where I was at in Greece, as the keep was degraded back to a fort after the successful siege assault (autocalced, due to lack of siege equipment).

[antisocialmunky]

Katanks are best used when V2 or better, either pumped up or with a high command star general. They do their best when holding the flank - as defenders. They are excellent anticav and can plug a hole in the line nicely.

Porno Cav very much like Feudal Knights, fresh out of the box they start at morale 8 and are great all purpose cav, skirmishing archers, flanking, running down routers, etc. With the lower armor and faster speed they are better in arid climates.

Both have their uses, neither is better, except for specific uses.

ichi

Ehh..? Ichi or eechi?

[ichi]

Ehh..? Ichi or eechi?

ichi

[littlebktruck]

EYG's last post reminds me of a question: are the morale bonuses for religious buildings cumulative?

[Zarax]

No, they aren't...

[Ironside]

EYG's last post reminds me of a question: are the morale bonuses for religious buildings cumulative?

The church gives +2
The monastary gives +2 (for a total of +4)
And the reliquary gives +2 (total +6)

So yes they are cumulative, but something is wrong with the descriptions as they say. +1,+1,+2.

[edyzmedieval]

And the Cathedral gives +3 so +9 in total.

[EatYerGreens]

And the Cathedral gives +3 so +9 in total.

Kewl.

I was confused for a moment, when Zarax said it wasn't cumulative...

As I said, the BI units need this boost. The trouble is that the units which start with high basic morale will get to such a state that they'll never break and, if trapped, will probably fight to the last man. Gulp.

[antisocialmunky]

Like Ghazis + Mosque.

[edyzmedieval]

Like Ghazis + Mosque.

I'm making the Elite Ghazis, for the BTW mod. Master Swordsmith + Grand Mosque.

Completely fanatical, with awesome attack.

[antisocialmunky]

If only they wore chain mail instead of those little shirts.

[Ironside]

Kewl.

I was confused for a moment, when Zarax said it wasn't cumulative...

As I said, the BI units need this boost. The trouble is that the units which start with high basic morale will get to such a state that they'll never break and, if trapped, will probably fight to the last man. Gulp.

Hmf... My morale 14 saracen inf broke, and they wasn't even flanked. I mean 98% losses is nothing

[BAD]

Hmf... My morale 14 saracen inf broke, and they wasn't even flanked. I mean 98% losses is nothing

LMAO!!! Though I remember some of my housemates Boyar's getting to Morale 33??!!?!

[antisocialmunky]

Well, handgunners shooting and charging at something at 50% health is almost a guarantied rout.

[Del Arroyo]

The one game where I had some Byz Infantry, from a bribed rebel army, I put them into battle at the center of my line, and the friggin Katanks charged them and routed my entire army

Since then I haven't had much respect for them.

DA

[antisocialmunky]

Gotta love that 0 morale.

[EatYerGreens]

Gotta love that 0 morale.

Heh heh! You have to find ways to work around it too, adding to the challenge. Like keep the general close by them at all times...

The description parchment says they are Heavy Infantry, IIRC, but the Tech Tree classes them as Medium Infantry, alongside the likes of Gallowglasses, Clansmen, CMAAs. I suspect this is their correct classification. The unit size of 100 is probably meant to reflect their ancestry in the Ancient Roman empire and the century being their standard unit size.

The poor morale is an Achilles' heel but I think they needed to be handicapped in this way, otherwise the larger unit size would make them overpowering relative to the other MedInf types, which are mostly 60 men (@ default size), therefore upsetting the game balance. A human Byz player would be left with less of a challenge and an AI Byz faction would just storm the map and become so rich as to be near impossible to stop, humiliating the human player in the process. Negative gaming experience tends to cause the thing to be put away on the shelf...

[m52nickerson]

I've never had that much problem with morale 0 troops. I use Halberdiers as my front line troops all the time (I hate spears). As long as you keep a high morale unit close to them and protect there flank you should be fine.

[Ironside]

I've never had that much problem with morale 0 troops. I use Halberdiers as my front line troops all the time (I hate spears). As long as you keep a high morale unit close to them and protect there flank you should be fine.

I suspect that your halbs got a few moral bonuses from buildings. It's a huge difference between 0 morale and 2+ morale. Try some costum battles and see for yourself.