Problem with Christianity

[Byzantine Prince]

Ok I was sitting down watching I heart Huckabees and thinking hard about philosophy and I just realised something I think is important.

Ok as a disclaimer, I am not in any ways trying to bash Christianity, just trying to communicate an theory I just made up about the history and theory of it.

Ok here we go. I think the fatal flaw in christianity is that the Bible is not necessarily a philosophical text. Ok now let's talk about the history. For ages the church and Christians in general have been pretty mean and even evil people, even in a christian context. How do we explain all the lynching, the murders, the war, the executions, the slavery that has been commited in the name of christ? A person who taught love and to treat everyone as he would like to be treated. How could people blatantly ignore that?

How can we as a Christian society be capitalists? Jesus himself was a socialist I'm sure.
Seriously though aren't the christian conservatives in the US being a tad hypocritical about following god's message and at the same time supporting a government that would ban homosexuality, give capitalism, which is let's face, greed! more tax breaks. Or how about letting the poor and needy die by destroying social security and privatizing health care, which is already is in the US. Is this really what Jesus was talking about. Or how about the Pope, a mear *man* being given so much wealth and power and so much attention for the sake of god or jesus. Look at Jesus, he taught humility, the was nothing modest about the pope's inaguration. These are Christians?!?! These people make me sick, they are even lower then sychophants!

Hell even Nitzsche makes Jesus out to be a great person even though Jesus... well didn't believe in God because technically he WAS god wasn't he. Hm. Interesting, so I can only assume that if Jesus lived today he would be an existentialist socialist guy just like god. Hell I can quote JAG "I am God". JAG is Jesus! OMFG!!!

Well so I guess the question is, is JAG god?

[AntiochusIII]

To be fair, many of the Christian (devout ones) posters here condemn the Vatican for its corruption.

Edit: Yeah, this thread is quite a fat bait for flaming. I smell BBQ...

[Papewaio]

When a footballer makes a mistake do you blame the individual or the rules and spirit of the game?

[IliaDN]

Ok I was sitting down watching I heart Huckabees and thinking hard about philosophy and I just realised something I think is important.

Ok as a disclaimer, I am not in any ways trying to bash Christianity, just trying to communicate an theory I just made up about the history and theory of it.

Ok here we go. I think the fatal flaw in christianity is that the Bible is not necessarily a philosophical text. Ok now let's talk about the history. For ages the church and Christians in general have been pretty mean and even evil people, even in a christian context. How do we explain all the lynching, the murders, the war, the executions, the slavery that has been commited in the name of christ? A person who taught love and to treat everyone as he would like to be treated. How could people blatantly ignore that?

How can we as a Christian society be capitalists? Jesus himself was a socialist I'm sure.
Seriously though aren't the christian conservatives in the US being a tad hypocritical about following god's message and at the same time supporting a government that would ban homosexuality, give capitalism, which is let's face, greed! more tax breaks. Or how about letting the poor and needy die by destroying social security and privatizing health care, which is already is in the US. Is this really what Jesus was talking about. Or how about the Pope, a mear *man* being given so much wealth and power and so much attention for the sake of god or jesus. Look at Jesus, he taught humility, the was nothing modest about the pope's inaguration. These are Christians?!?! These people make me sick, they are even lower then sychophants!

Hell even Nitzsche makes Jesus out to be a great person even though Jesus... well didn't believe in God because technically he WAS god wasn't he. Hm. Interesting, so I can only assume that if Jesus lived today he would be an existentialist socialist guy just like god. Hell I can quote JAG "I am God". JAG is Jesus! OMFG!!!

Well so I guess the question is, is JAG god?

What about muslims for example? Nowadays many crimes are made by people who claim themselves to be muslims.

[KafirChobee]

Please lock this thread. It has no purpose except to incite the believers into a fury of Gods Will. And condemn the rest of us to hell.

Me thinks.

Also, it has been done, over and over and over again. Either we believe, or we don't. If we do, God blesses us. If we don't Satan does. So? What is the point?

[Byzantine Prince]

A) PAPE I have not idea what you're talking about

B)This is not about Muslims, so let's try and forget about them

C)Kafeer, this thread is great and will not be closed. And no we are not going to hell for not believing in God. Jesus didn't believe in god for example.

[Redleg]

C)Kafeer, this thread is great and will not be closed. And no we are not going to hell for not believing in God. Jesus didn't believe in god for example.

Now that is funny and shows a lack of understanding of the Bible.

[Strike For The South]

BP do try to get a rise out of people or is it a god-given talent

[PanzerJaeger]

In my understanding, Jesus recognized the role of government and society. "Give unto Ceasar... "

Jesus also made things in exchange for money.. So I dont think he made any statements by example in the economic arena.

Ive got to say your portrayal of the bible and the church are a bit skewed in my opinion.

The biggest contradiction between American Christians and what Jesus taught is the wealth. From what Ive been taught Jesus didnt like wealth.

However, Jesus also embraced forgiveness and a loving God.

[Byzantine Prince]

Thanks for being the only one that actually adressed my post Panzer. You are one of my favorite members here, you always see both sides of an argument. That's a very smart thing.

What do you thin about my Jesus is a Socialist argument? Don't you think that the philosophy of treat other as you would like to be treated is great metaphor for socialism?

Also I don't see how extreme capitalism is anything like Jesus's humility and compassion. Also it's very contradicotry to the 'greed is sin' idea in the Bible.


And no I have not actually erad the Bible. All I know is from school and from things I've read in religious books in school.

[Papewaio]

Do you blame the sinner for their mistake or the Bible which attempts to lay a path to steer them clear?

[PanzerJaeger]

What do you thin about my Jesus is a Socialist argument? Don't you think that the philosophy of treat other as you would like to be treated is great metaphor for socialism?

In the purest sense of the word I would say he could be called a socialist. He certainly believed in taking care of the lowest in society and disliked the pharisee mentality.

Also I don't see how extreme capitalism is anything like Jesus's humility and compassion. Also it's very contradicotry to the 'greed is sin' idea in the Bible.

As I said, the biggest contridiction between Christians today and Jesus is the wealth. However, Jesus did work for a living and helped support his family, which is what people living in capitolist societies do all over the world.


Its also important to note the differences between the different Gospels. I studied a whole year just on that. The writers MML&J each put their own emphasis' on their accounts and had their own agenda's.

If a person really wants to get a picture of Jesus the man, i think he needs to find common events that transcend the four official Gospels and those that were not admitted.

The book of Thomas, if i remember right, should be read carefully.

[Byzantine Prince]

Yes I agree, but socialist economies still have some use for money and making money, they just take care of the poor and less fortunate much better. I wasn't suggesting that Jesus was a communist.

Pape, I blame the church for misleading people. Not necassarily the church I was a part of, they seemed pretty blameless, but certainly the catholic church. Look at how much they worship the pope, with his inaguration being almost the same as that of a king in magnitude and extravagance. Do you really think Jesus aproves of that. Or how about the way they killed people for simply saying that the earth was round?!?! Or causing the crusades? Or ignoring the holocaust. These things actually hapened and how am I suposed to take when they actually still have the same traditions and leadership?

I never said Jesus was bad, I even admire him in my initial post. I thought *Christianity* was about Jesus last I checked, so not being like him is pretty unChristian wouldn't you agree?

[Strike For The South]

IMO Yes I agree the pope is given way to much credit (one of the reasons im baptist ) as for trying to be like jesus thats every true christians goal but we will eventually fall short because he is the son of god and we are man that is what repentance is for but that in no way means some of things done in the name of christ were right. As for being a socialist I don't think so neither do I think he was a capitalist I think he was trying to get people to find god and provide a set of moral codes to live by

[Divinus Arma]

The problem is religion. Religion is a perpetual dilemma of contradiction.


If there was a hell, then it would be unethical to have children. Why? Because they might go to hell. Don't you love the idea of your children enough not to risk them an eternity of hell? I don't even know them and I would rather not have them than risk damning them to an eterntiy of fiery damnation.

If thou shall have no other Gods before me, then what up with the J man?

If thou shalt not make any graven image unto me, then what up with the crucifix?

If Jesus actually died and came back, then why isn't he still hanging around?

And if Jesus is God, couldn't he come back any time he wants? So then what is the big deal with the short-term death? Die, come back, die again, come back again, rinse wash repeat.

And if he isn't God, then why are thou putting someone before the big man upstairs?

If he died for our sins wouldn't that mean he actually died? Like really died. If he got to come back, then it isn't much of a sacrifice!

Omens and portents, myths and legend. No different from our superstitious ancestors. The earth is flat! The stars are gods! The sun is a flaming chariot! Jesus rose from the dead and will come again! Simply believe and you will be given a life of eternal paradise!

I believe in monkeys that sling poo. That I can see.

[Byzantine Prince]

I don't mind tolerating Christians if they were like Jesus Christ, but most are pricks. Seriously, I don't doubt most actually believe in God and "accept" Jesus(whatever *that* means) but do they act on it? No.

That's the problem with Christianity, the church and the majority of Christians. The story of Jesus is just a story and it doesn't really matter, what he tought should be the Bible! Like what Nietzsche wrote is his philosophy not how he lived and died!(for example)

[Sigurd]

You do strike at something important and I am sure the intent of this thread is not to discuss that which is to follow: The origin of the church.
At least that was what I thought of when reading your remarks. The latter part of your remarks is just a rant which ended in an unserious question which could very likely result in spam…

Ok BP, you got me thinking of the origin of the Christian church and whether it was Jesus’ intent to let it survive. As you indirectly pointed out, the infant church was peace loving, pacifist and evangelical. What changed that?

I would say the organisation that Jesus and his Apostles founded did not survive. And that a bastardisation was organised at a later point; the remnant of which survived and branched off to the 250+ Christian denominations that exists today.

Ever since Eusebius sought to prove the survival of the church the church history has been the same; to give a clear and comprehensive, scientifically established view of the development of the visible institution of salvation founded by Christ.
To describe it – not to question it. ...
Church history requires unquestioning acceptance of the basic propositions that the church did survive. There are endless writings about the infant church, but not one questions the notion that the early church does not consider its organisation as infant but rather as an old failing woman. ...
One writes about the unquenchable light through storm and shadow, yet does not question why Jesus himself insisted that the Light was to be taken away. In fact Jesus announced in no uncertain terms that his message would be rejected by all men(1). That he would soon leave the world to die in its sins and seek after him in vain(2). The light was soon to depart, leaving a great darkness in which no man can work while the prince of this world would remain, as usual, in possession of the field(3). ...
This bodes ill for the interval between the ascension and the parousia; it was to be a bad time and a long one(4). What is more it begins almost immediately, the apostles themselves calling attention to all the fatal signs and marvelling only that it has come so soon(5).

A short while the early church enjoyed the leadership of apostles as nomadic preachers and overseers of the small churches in the Mediterranean area, each of which was lead by a bishop.
The apostles where finally all killed by the opposition to the early church. Who would take the mantle of the empty positions of the apostles?
The bishops gathered with the intent to sort out this predicament of the church. Clementine (the bishop of Rome) would not take the mantle of general leadership as he proposed that such authority lay within the tomes of the apostles (6).
The esoteric knowledge of the church was lost and there were no guidance. This knowledge was later claimed by the Gnostics.

The fact is the early church was an eschatological one or in other words a doomsday church. And it ended as predicted with the apostles. They (the church) were all to be martyrs and would all face the fate of its founder and his apostles; death. And the earth would dwindle in unbelief and led by the prince of darkness until the return of Him who would destroy his enemies; the time of reconciliation or judgement. The enemies of the church exploited every inconsistencies and absurdities in its position and made merry over “Jesus the King who never ruled” they never played up what would be the biggest joke of them all – the feverish, hourly expectations of the Lord who never came. This is according to Robert Eisler: “The most astonishing of all historical paradoxes”.

[edit]: Be advised that I started my response when this thread only had one reply...
[edit II]: Added italics and colour to quoted material from the book When the Lights Went Out by Hugh W. Nibley.

(1)Matthew 17:12; 21:37-39; 23:31-37; Mark 12:6-8; Luke 17:25; John 1:5, 10-11; 3:11-12, 19, 32; 5:38, 40-47; 7:7; 8:19,23-24, 37-38,40-47; 15:22-25; Acts 3:21
(2)Matthew 9:15; Luke 9:41; 13:25-27; 17:22; John 12:33-36; 13:33; 14:30; 16:16; Acts 3:21
(3)John 9:4-5; 14:30; Recognitiones Clementinae 3.61(PG 1:1208)
(4)Matthew 13:30, 39-43; Mark 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Didache 16
(5)John 17:25; 1 Peter 5:8; 1 John 3:1
(6) Recognitiones Clementinae xxx

[rasoforos]

First of all there isa fundamental flaw in believing on a omnipotent and error free God. Simply, everyone things that God thinks like him and would encourage his views, as a result everyone else is wrong or a heretic ( Just look how fast religious fight broke at the 'Christian Club' thread.)

Secondly its the bible. We have two very contradictory groups of texts there. An angry God with a serious attitude problem in the old testament, killing children, killing ppl who dont follow what he says, vengeful and in serious need of anger management classes. On the other hand Jesus comes and talks about non violence, forgiveness, tollerance, the support of the marginalised.

Not willing to abandon one testament in favour of the other people have found convenient compromises using the version that suits them most every time. So nothing changes, its just that before religion to kill someone you would need to bypass your moral barriers ( if you had any), after religion you can just find a relevant quote and go on killing guilt free...in the name of an All mercifull God.

Finally the bible has another problem. Most versions out there, especially in protestant countries with various different dogmas, are not only greviouslt misstranslated but also heavily revised, with verses missing or having beem changed totally to suit the ideas of the dogma. Since most people cannot read Hellenistic Greek they get away with it.



As to if capitalism can go with Christianity:

Well, truth be told, the first Christians were more or less Communal. They were mostly living in groups, were sharing their goods, finance and their food, were eating in big communal dinners. Also the early forms of confession, if memory serves right, were communal.

As a result the first Christians were something between hippies and communists the way I see it.

However, lets face it, there is no such thing as 100% capitalism. Even countries like the US, who have been priding on being capitalist, have implemented large socialist reforms ( they just dont call them that ), like wellfare, public health programs, benefits etc etc. As a result, for a society where the rich do give to the poor...somewhat, like most free market economies today , you cannot say that the Economy is incompatible with the Christian ideals.

[bmolsson]

Christianity, like most other religions, are nothing but a powerstructure used to oppress people. Instead of elections you have the leaders appointed by a deity. Furthermore, it is a socialist structure with people treated as a mob and the trading with "souls" is used beside the normal economocal trade.
The entry of democracy will in the end remove the religions as they will loose power and become outdated.

[Navaros]

On the other hand Jesus comes and talks about non violence, forgiveness, tollerance, the support of the marginalised.

Jesus certainly does not tolerate sin. he tries to help sinners, yes, but to say he is "tolerant" is a gross misrepresentation of what Jesus is all about.

@the comment saying Jesus was socialist: correct me if i'm wrong, but do socialists not support the murder of babies via "abortion"? if so most certainly Jesus is not a socialist.

as for saying that Christians have done so many evil things: secular society at large has done and does do much more evil things than what Christians have done. the worst of course being the legalized holocaust and genocide of babies called "abortion"

any evil committed by Christians certainly pales immensely in comparison to that

[AggonyDuck]

Ok here we go. I think the fatal flaw in christianity is that the Bible is not necessarily a philosophical text.

What I find is strange is that you claim that the fatal flaw in christianity is that the Bible is not a philosophical text, but yet you don't have an argument why this would be a flaw. I would honestly say that your claim is false, because the bible is a philosophical book, that basically revolves around Jesus' teachings. In my opinion if the bible can't be considered a philosophical text, then a lot of the dialogues written by philosophers can't be considered philosophical either. Anyways I'd like to hear your argument why the Bible is not a philosophical book?

Just as note, that what I refer as the Bible is actually the new testament.

[AggonyDuck]

For ages the church and Christians in general have been pretty mean and even evil people, even in a christian context. How do we explain all the lynching, the murders, the war, the executions, the slavery that has been commited in the name of christ? A person who taught love and to treat everyone as he would like to be treated. How could people blatantly ignore that?

Because they're humans in good and bad...For ages the humans have been pretty mean and evil people. All those lynchings, murders, wars, executions etc. are not caused by Christianity, but by humans who claimed that they believed in it. Remember that religion is a mighty tool in the hands of someone who knows how to manipulate the people who believe in it.
It's also a very easy way to justify things and the perfect excuse at times.
What I'm trying to say is that the blame for those horrendous acts goes to the humans who commited them, not to Christianity.

[Devastatin Dave]

I don't mind tolerating Christians if they were like Jesus Christ, but most are pricks.

Very revealing....

[rasoforos]

Jesus certainly does not tolerate sin. he tries to help sinners, yes, but to say he is "tolerant" is a gross misrepresentation of what Jesus is all about.

@the comment saying Jesus was socialist: correct me if i'm wrong, but do socialists not support the murder of babies via "abortion"? if so most certainly Jesus is not a socialist.

Yes, I clearly remember Jesus giving an anti-abortion speech at the hills of Gallilea...


If you need to talk anti abortion please do so without quoting something totally irrelevant to what u want to say.

I also find the idea that 'socialists' greatest atribute to be 'abortion' to be a bit....shall i say...non realistic?

I think you really need to see what socialist policy means, you kinda have it all wrong.


I m not gonna go into a theological discussion but, Jesus, having said 'love eachother', and having said ' forgive em ' when they crucified him must have been at least a bit tollerant to sin. Else he d say ' love eachother unless the others are sinners' and ' waste the bloody $%#^&$ and sent their sinful #$%# to hell'

But this kind of idea of an intollerant Jesus proves my point, people just 'shape' religion to fit their ideals.

[KukriKhan]

Temporarily closed pending staff review.
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:tick-tock-tic-tock
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Action complete. Re-opened for CIVIL discussion.

[The Stranger]

this thread is soooooo funny. you backroomers make me laugh everytime.

[Redleg]

And no I have not actually erad the Bible. All I know is from school and from things I've read in religious books in school.

Then my suggestion is that you actually read the bible before making certain claims.

It is the source of your complaint - churches and people have failed numerous times in upholding the philosophy of being a christian - but it does not make the philosophy unsound.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Do you really think Jesus aproves of that. Or how about the way they killed people for simply saying that the earth was round?!?! Or causing the crusades? Or ignoring the holocaust. These things actually hapened and how am I suposed to take when they actually still have the same traditions and leadership?

Um, they didn't kill people for saying the earth was round. In fact, I believe it is a misconception that people believed the earth was flat in the middle ages.

As for the crusades; they were a defensive move. It was responding to the Muslim invasion of the Holy Land. Christians have a right to defend themselves, after all.

And ignoring the holocaust?! Please, our last Pope actually was in the resistance against the Nazis!

Could you at least get your facts straight and not accuse Christians of every thing you may have read on some dan-brown-lovin' website?

Crazed Rabbit

[AntiochusIII]

Um, they didn't kill people for saying the earth was round. In fact, I believe it is a misconception that people believed the earth was flat in the middle ages.

Really? Interesting. Could you show me some links please?

As for the crusades; they were a defensive move. It was responding to the Muslim invasion of the Holy Land. Christians have a right to defend themselves, after all.

Erm...defensive move? Don't be joking. The Muslims took it from the Eastern Romans - Orthodox Christians, perhaps, but surely not Catholic, and both were bitter rivals as much as Christians and Muslims were - centuries before the First Crusade. Everybody knows Eastern Roman Emperor (Byzantine, I know :p) Alexius Comnenus was desperate for reinforcements to fight off the Turks in Anatolia and started the whole thing...except the West (at the time) was a bit more fanatical and responded a bit too positive to his plea than poor Alexius thought...

And then the wars get into the cycle of revenge and counter-attack and new generations of ambitious "knights" until the Christians finally gave up.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The myth of the flat earth theory

Orthodox Christians, perhaps, but surely not Catholic, and both were bitter rivals as much as Christians and Muslims were

The Orthodox and Catholics were bitter rivals? I find that interesting, could you provide any links?

And yes, it was defensive: the Muslims attacked (and not just around Israel either, but also in the west on the Iberian pennisula) and the Christians had to defend themselves and their faith.

Crazed Rabbit