Problem with Christianity

[Divinus Arma]

The problem is religion. Religion is a perpetual dilemma of contradiction.


If there was a hell, then it would be unethical to have children. Why? Because they might go to hell. Don't you love the idea of your children enough not to risk them an eternity of hell? I don't even know them and I would rather not have them than risk damning them to an eterntiy of fiery damnation.

If thou shall have no other Gods before me, then what up with the J man?

If thou shalt not make any graven image unto me, then what up with the crucifix?

If Jesus actually died and came back, then why isn't he still hanging around?

And if Jesus is God, couldn't he come back any time he wants? So then what is the big deal with the short-term death? Die, come back, die again, come back again, rinse wash repeat.

And if he isn't God, then why are thou putting someone before the big man upstairs?

If he died for our sins wouldn't that mean he actually died? Like really died. If he got to come back, then it isn't much of a sacrifice!

Omens and portents, myths and legend. No different from our superstitious ancestors. The earth is flat! The stars are gods! The sun is a flaming chariot! Jesus rose from the dead and will come again! Simply believe and you will be given a life of eternal paradise!

I believe in monkeys that sling poo. That I can see.

[Byzantine Prince]

I don't mind tolerating Christians if they were like Jesus Christ, but most are pricks. Seriously, I don't doubt most actually believe in God and "accept" Jesus(whatever *that* means) but do they act on it? No.

That's the problem with Christianity, the church and the majority of Christians. The story of Jesus is just a story and it doesn't really matter, what he tought should be the Bible! Like what Nietzsche wrote is his philosophy not how he lived and died!(for example)

[rasoforos]

First of all there isa fundamental flaw in believing on a omnipotent and error free God. Simply, everyone things that God thinks like him and would encourage his views, as a result everyone else is wrong or a heretic ( Just look how fast religious fight broke at the 'Christian Club' thread.)

Secondly its the bible. We have two very contradictory groups of texts there. An angry God with a serious attitude problem in the old testament, killing children, killing ppl who dont follow what he says, vengeful and in serious need of anger management classes. On the other hand Jesus comes and talks about non violence, forgiveness, tollerance, the support of the marginalised.

Not willing to abandon one testament in favour of the other people have found convenient compromises using the version that suits them most every time. So nothing changes, its just that before religion to kill someone you would need to bypass your moral barriers ( if you had any), after religion you can just find a relevant quote and go on killing guilt free...in the name of an All mercifull God.

Finally the bible has another problem. Most versions out there, especially in protestant countries with various different dogmas, are not only greviouslt misstranslated but also heavily revised, with verses missing or having beem changed totally to suit the ideas of the dogma. Since most people cannot read Hellenistic Greek they get away with it.



As to if capitalism can go with Christianity:

Well, truth be told, the first Christians were more or less Communal. They were mostly living in groups, were sharing their goods, finance and their food, were eating in big communal dinners. Also the early forms of confession, if memory serves right, were communal.

As a result the first Christians were something between hippies and communists the way I see it.

However, lets face it, there is no such thing as 100% capitalism. Even countries like the US, who have been priding on being capitalist, have implemented large socialist reforms ( they just dont call them that ), like wellfare, public health programs, benefits etc etc. As a result, for a society where the rich do give to the poor...somewhat, like most free market economies today , you cannot say that the Economy is incompatible with the Christian ideals.

[Navaros]

On the other hand Jesus comes and talks about non violence, forgiveness, tollerance, the support of the marginalised.

Jesus certainly does not tolerate sin. he tries to help sinners, yes, but to say he is "tolerant" is a gross misrepresentation of what Jesus is all about.

@the comment saying Jesus was socialist: correct me if i'm wrong, but do socialists not support the murder of babies via "abortion"? if so most certainly Jesus is not a socialist.

as for saying that Christians have done so many evil things: secular society at large has done and does do much more evil things than what Christians have done. the worst of course being the legalized holocaust and genocide of babies called "abortion"

any evil committed by Christians certainly pales immensely in comparison to that

[rasoforos]

Jesus certainly does not tolerate sin. he tries to help sinners, yes, but to say he is "tolerant" is a gross misrepresentation of what Jesus is all about.

@the comment saying Jesus was socialist: correct me if i'm wrong, but do socialists not support the murder of babies via "abortion"? if so most certainly Jesus is not a socialist.

Yes, I clearly remember Jesus giving an anti-abortion speech at the hills of Gallilea...


If you need to talk anti abortion please do so without quoting something totally irrelevant to what u want to say.

I also find the idea that 'socialists' greatest atribute to be 'abortion' to be a bit....shall i say...non realistic?

I think you really need to see what socialist policy means, you kinda have it all wrong.


I m not gonna go into a theological discussion but, Jesus, having said 'love eachother', and having said ' forgive em ' when they crucified him must have been at least a bit tollerant to sin. Else he d say ' love eachother unless the others are sinners' and ' waste the bloody $%#^&$ and sent their sinful #$%# to hell'

But this kind of idea of an intollerant Jesus proves my point, people just 'shape' religion to fit their ideals.

[KukriKhan]

Temporarily closed pending staff review.
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:tick-tock-tic-tock
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Action complete. Re-opened for CIVIL discussion.

[The Stranger]

this thread is soooooo funny. you backroomers make me laugh everytime.

[Bartix]

C)Kafeer, this thread is great and will not be closed. And no we are not going to hell for not believing in God. Jesus didn't believe in god for example.

Temporarily closed pending staff review.
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:tick-tock-tic-tock
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Action complete. Re-opened for CIVIL discussion.

See! The prophecy of BP still holds!


Question of faith rquierd is question. If you KNOW God exists, your faith cannot save you....

[Navaros]

If you need to talk anti abortion please do so without quoting something totally irrelevant to what u want to say.

I also find the idea that 'socialists' greatest atribute to be 'abortion' to be a bit....shall i say...non realistic?

I think you really need to see what socialist policy means, you kinda have it all wrong.


I m not gonna go into a theological discussion but, Jesus, having said 'love eachother', and having said ' forgive em ' when they crucified him must have been at least a bit tollerant to sin. Else he d say ' love eachother unless the others are sinners' and ' waste the bloody $%#^&$ and sent their sinful #$%# to hell'

But this kind of idea of an intollerant Jesus proves my point, people just 'shape' religion to fit their ideals.

i was not the first one in this thread to bring up "abortion". another poster attributed Jesus to being a member of a type of group that supports that. in response, i was simply posting the truth of the matter. Jesus would never ever support that sort of murder.

and aside from that, if characterizing many Christians as evil for bad things they have done is fair game, then characterizing secularists for committing an even bigger atrocity should also be fair game

yes, Jesus did say to love each other. however, that is not a free license to sin. Jesus will try to help a sinner, but that does not mean he condones or tolerates the sinner's evil behaviours.

incidentally, the title of this thread is also a misnomer. because the biggest problem with Christianity is when non-Christians who do not understand the doctrine at all try to make definitive statements as if they knew what Jesus represents

[bmolsson]

Christianity, like most other religions, are nothing but a powerstructure used to oppress people. Instead of elections you have the leaders appointed by a deity. Furthermore, it is a socialist structure with people treated as a mob and the trading with "souls" is used beside the normal economocal trade.
The entry of democracy will in the end remove the religions as they will loose power and become outdated.

[Roark]

Christianity, like most other religions, are nothing but a powerstructure used to oppress people.

I reject this notion, given the extensive charity work that goes on under the Christian banner. Conveniently ignored?

The church that I was raised in as a youngster never tried to oppress me, nor am I aware of anything like this going on in the mainstream denominations.

Perhaps your knowledge of Christianity is limited to the medieval/Renaissance periods, and to the Catholic church...

The entry of democracy will in the end remove the religions as they will loose power and become outdated.

Again, I don't find this to be accurate. The vast majority of Christian nations have been democratic for some time now...

Church attendance is falling, but I don't see a link to democracy.

[bmolsson]

I reject this notion, given the extensive charity work that goes on under the Christian banner. Conveniently ignored?

The church that I was raised in as a youngster never tried to oppress me, nor am I aware of anything like this going on in the mainstream denominations.

Perhaps your knowledge of Christianity is limited to the medieval/Renaissance periods, and to the Catholic church...

Not at all. Devoted Christians are not always evil, most of them are actually good people. But this doesn't change the fact that Christianity is a religion, which strives for political power and have always done so.

Again, I don't find this to be accurate. The vast majority of Christian nations have been democratic for some time now...

Church attendance is falling, but I don't see a link to democracy.

There is a direct link between increased secularism and democracy. It's quite obvious actually.

[Papewaio]

...a religion, which strives for political power and have always done so.

A religion that does not gain political power often finds itself at the mercy of one that has gained power.

Hence there has been a wittling away of virtually all faiths that do not have political clout. Even internal sects will get removed if they fall prey to a stronger ones political moves (Templars).

In the end the more political faiths will increase in frequency while those less fit will die out.

[Adrian II]

There is a direct link between increased secularism and democracy. It's quite obvious actually.

Please elaborate, because to me this isn't obvious at all. How does it apply to the United States, for instance?

[bmolsson]

Please elaborate, because to me this isn't obvious at all. How does it apply to the United States, for instance?

US faces a decreased democratic process, where lobby has a far larger power than before. This results in less participation in decisions by the voters. Also to note is that US is a democratic republic and not a democracy.

[Albino Gorilla]

There is a direct link between increased secularism and democracy. It's quite obvious actually.

What about Athens?

[bmolsson]

What about Athens?

Greece is pretty secular and democratic I would say.... The womens are a bit emotional though....

[Roark]

This is really the statement I kinda took issue with, Bmolsson. It is far more dismissive and blinkered than I have come to expect from you.

nothing but a powerstructure used to oppress people

There are many more considerable facets to faith and the religion itself. This is what I would I would have expected from the one-liner atheists that pronounce their "obvious truths" about the universe in many of the other religious threads.

I doubt that Christianity will ever truly die out, even considering the passing of primeval faiths like Shamanism and pantheism.

[Sigurd]

*Starts wondering if I am on everyone’s ignore list*

I posted a quite provocative post in this thread and no one found it such? No comments?

The question of this thread is Problem with Christianity and I postulated that the real problem is that there should be no Christian organisation today. It ended in the crossover of the 1st and 2nd century.

[Adrian II]

*Starts wondering if I am on everyone’s ignore list*

You're not on my ignore list, on the contrary. We've discussed this before in posts and PM's. But it is really an issue that Christians should address, not outsiders like me. And I'm interested in their answers just like you.

[Pindar]

You're not on my ignore list, on the contrary. We've discussed this before in posts and PM's. But it is really an issue that Christians should address, not outsiders like me. And I'm interested in their answers just like you.

I think its problematic to argue that Primative Christianity is consistant with what came after: organizational, doctrinal and theological shifts were massvie and obvious.

[Roark]

Sigurd, I personally didn't respond because you obviously plagiarised an essay by Hugh Nibley. This guy is a Mormon "scholar" who has also postulated that there were elephants in North America (as the Book of Mormon dubiously states) in Biblical times. I have no respect for his academic work, and I don't really dig the fact that you cut, pasted, and presented his work as your own.

Mmkay?

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, I personally didn't respond because you obviously plagiarised an essay by Hugh Nibley. This guy is a Mormon "scholar" who has also postulated that there were elephants in North America (as the Book of Mormon dubiously states) in Biblical times. I have no respect for his academic work, and I don't really dig the fact that you cut, pasted, and presented his work as your own.

Mmkay?

It is true I am guilty of not properly quoting my work here in this thread, but this is hardly a hand in assignment. As you duly demonstrated there is a reason why I not always give exact references: that is, the response would be directed against the author and not at his ideas.
Truth to tell: I have many opinions on the subject of religion and have studied it for quite some time now. And it was my ideas to certain subjects that resulted in me getting a book called: When the Lights Went Out, by a friend that happens to be a Mormon. It was quite a surprise in the first place that my friend agreed to many of my views. So far I only have this one book which consists of three studies on the ancient church.

Personally I was a little suspect over his work since he obviously is biased against Mormonism. When I found out that his work agrees with prominent scholars of other faiths and the fact that his work is well referenced and nearly all quoted from sources itself, he wrote himself into my good book. The elephant thing you mention have I not come across myself but sounds more like a real bias against his faith and should not discredit all his work.

[edit]: made corrections to my post #17 in this thread...

[Pindar]

Sigurd, I personally didn't respond because you obviously plagiarised an essay by Hugh Nibley. This guy is a Mormon "scholar" who has also postulated that there were elephants in North America (as the Book of Mormon dubiously states) in Biblical times. I have no respect for his academic work, and I don't really dig the fact that you cut, pasted, and presented his work as your own.

Mmkay?

Hello,

I think it is a flaw to discount one conclusion because you disagree with another. Regarding Nibley and elephants, this is an example of his work:


"What happened to the elephants? The Jaredites used them, we are told, but there is no mention of the Nephites having them. They disappear in between the two cultures. When? The Book of Mormon does not say, and the guesses of scientists range all the way from hundreds of thousands to mere hundreds of years ago. Elephants have strange ways of disappearing. If it were not for the written accounts of unquestionable authenticity, no one would ever have guessed that the Pharaohs of the XVIII Dynasty hunted elephants in Syria - where are their remains? Prof. Mallowan says that the wonderful Birs Nimrud ivories which he discovered were made from the tusks of a now-extinct breed of elephant that was being hunted in Mesopotamia as recently as the eighth century B.C. Who would have guessed that ten years ago?" - Since Cumorah, p. 255:

Here is a site that shows some interest in the subject: Elephants

I know in my home state of California there have been found several remains of pygmy mammoths on the Channel Islands that are dated to around 2000 B.C. Even so...

[Devastatin Dave]

I don't mind tolerating Christians if they were like Jesus Christ, but most are pricks.

Very revealing....

[Albino Gorilla]

The problem is religion. Religion is a perpetual dilemma of contradiction.


If there was a hell, then it would be unethical to have children. Why? Because they might go to hell. Don't you love the idea of your children enough not to risk them an eternity of hell? I don't even know them and I would rather not have them than risk damning them to an eterntiy of fiery damnation.
Because it is up to that person wheather they go to hell or not, just like it is their choice to live a sucsseful life or not
If thou shall have no other Gods before me, then what up with the J man?
He is the son of god, and some belive he is the incarnation of god
If thou shalt not make any graven image unto me, then what up with the crucifix?

If Jesus actually died and came back, then why isn't he still hanging around?
He was ressurected and ascended to heaven. He hasn't returned to our world yet.
And if Jesus is God, couldn't he come back any time he wants? So then what is the big deal with the short-term death? Die, come back, die again, come back again, rinse wash repeat.
When he returns many belive the world will end

And if he isn't God, then why are thou putting someone before the big man upstairs?
Not everyone does. Each person has an individual belif in Christianity, of course they adhere to the rules, but in each person there will be slight differences. But look, either he is or he isn't, those who think he is belive he is god, and those who belive is is only the son of god don't put him before god
If he died for our sins wouldn't that mean he actually died? Like really died. If he got to come back, then it isn't much of a sacrifice!
It wasn't a painless death
Omens and portents, myths and legend. No different from our superstitious ancestors. The earth is flat! The stars are gods! The sun is a flaming chariot! Jesus rose from the dead and will come again! Simply believe and you will be given a life of eternal paradise!
Like as was said, many people belived and yet did horrible things. For what they did, despite their belifs, they will not be granted eternal paradise
I believe in monkeys that sling poo. That I can see.

I can't remember who said this, and this isn't exactly how he said it, but having faith, is having belifs in what you can't see