CHallenge for Pez'

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A number of comments have spurred me to suggest this.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is:

Take a Roman faction and win the imperial campaign, using the following limitations:

You may build no troops aside from peasants or town watch.

Your initial forces may only be used to take the initial "assigned" city, to garrison (but not attack from) your initial 3 cities and, when required, to attack Rome itself.

You may hire no more than 1 mercenary unit per year, with a limit of 10 total for the game.

Bribery, Assassination, Spying, Diplomacy, and naval action are -- of course -- open to you.

You must give us a report of your efforts.


-- I suspect I'll find in instructive (and fun!) to see just how well you do using only diplomats, spies, assassins, and blockades to accomplish your goals.

SF

[pezhetairoi]

So let me make this clear: Starter armies to take Segesta/Syracuse/Apollonia, and no further, and further conquests are only through using troops bribed from other Roman factions. Buildable stuff is limited to Town Watch and Peasantry and naval units, agents, and buildings. Yes? Is that right?

But a word of warning: I'm not playing on 1.2 so my bribing will really be extravagant. So it won't seem realistic to 1.2 players (my patch doesn't seem to work, $#&*@@%). But this will be a nice exercise in all the techniques I don't often use.

If all this seems okay, I take your challenge! (Though I don't know how long I can last, heehee) I will give you a turn by turn account of my actions. Updates begin tomorrow. :)

[gardibolt]

It seems at least possible in 1.0, but it will certainly be instructive and entertaining to get (daily) updates on how well this works. Have at it, Pez! Imagine how much influence your diplomats will have from this!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So let me make this clear: Starter armies to take Segesta/Syracuse/Apollonia, and no further, and further conquests are only through using troops bribed from other Roman factions. Buildable stuff is limited to Town Watch and Peasantry and naval units, agents, and buildings. Yes? Is that right?

But a word of warning: I'm not playing on 1.2 so my bribing will really be extravagant. So it won't seem realistic to 1.2 players (my patch doesn't seem to work, $#&*@@%). But this will be a nice exercise in all the techniques I don't often use.

If all this seems okay, I take your challenge! (Though I don't know how long I can last, heehee) I will give you a turn by turn account of my actions. Updates begin tomorrow. :)

All is as you noted, though you can use your peasants/watch offensively -- if you think that'd help. It is even appropriate for you to send a family member off to lead the "acquired" army -- but no armies of family member cavalry as some scurrilous folks have suggested. I'm interested to see if an experienced player can make this work.

[pezhetairoi]

Well, I guess I've already violated the rule... my style is to use all available factioners as military assets, and at least I have 2 if not more in one army as elite heavy cavalry...

--------------------------Turn I

SENATE: Take Segesta.
________________________________
Armies of Flavius and Vibius Julius storm Segesta.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 1216 K: 481 L: 1186

Df: Captain Motius (Rebel)
D: 481 K: 17 L: 0

Clear Victory; Segesta occupied.
_____________________________________

SENATE: 5000d granted.

Sextus Antio (Dip) heads to Rome and bribes Herius Mummius and Galerius Vinicianus for 2329d each. Herius and Galerius move and each occupy one ford of the river Tiber to prevent the junction of the two Senate armies, one under a family member, Servius Maxentius, and the other under the faction heir.


---------------------------II

SENATE: Take Caralis

No more Senate armies can be bribed because Servius Maxentius' army just got much bigger (and my treasury a bit smaller) and the faction leader is now in command of the other one. Sextus Antio bribes a Scipii unit of Hastati at Capua for 264d, and moves it to block Servius Maxentius' army southeast of Rome.

All current factioners save for Herius Mummius and Galerius Vinicianus move for Rome to merge.

ORDERED:
Segesta: Governor's House
Arretium: Trader
Ariminum: Port, Trader

--------------------------------------III

DONE:
Segesta: Governor's House

Factioners continue merging. The JEF (Julii Expeditionary Force) is formed just east of Rome.
Sextus Antio moves via ship to bribe a captain-led Senate army that has appeared at the mouth of the Tiber. He fails because of insufficient denarii.
2 Hastati units from the Home Guard in Segesta are disbanded to save cost.
Decius Curtius (Spy) moves for Cisalpine Gaul.

----------------------------IV

DONE:
Arretium: Trader
Ariminum: Port

The captain-led army is merged with Servius Maxentius' sole command. He now commands all non-factioner units of the Senate army and is a prime target.
Galerius Vinicianus and Herius Mummius are sent to trap the Senate Army under Servius Maxentius, which has retreated to Ostia, Rome's port. They press the Senate army between Ostia and the Tiber, ensuring that it is immobilised for future bribing.
Sextus Antio bribes 2 units of Scipii Hastati for 220d each. These are sent to join the JEF, still waiting outside Rome for deployment.
1 Velites unit in the Home Guard is disbanded.

ORDERED:
Arretium: Market

--------------------------------V

The JEF sails for Caralis with 4 factioners and 3 Hastati.
The Senate Trap maintains their position.
Sextus Antio becomes useless as the Julii treasury falls into the red.

--------------------------------VI

DONE
Ariminum: Trader
______________________________________
The JEF storms Caralis.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 721 K: 401 L: 710

Df: Captain Eshmunazar (Carthage)
D: 401 K: 13 L: 0

Clear Victory; Caralis is occupied.
____________________________________

SENATE: Hastati granted

The Senate reward is sent towards the coast of Etruria to await the return of the JEF.

-----------------------------VII

NEW FACTIONERS
Servius Postumius (Arretium)
Amulius Julius (Arretium)

SENATE: Take Patavium.

DONE
Arretium: Market

Leaving Quintus Julius behind to pacify Caralis, the JEF sails for Arretium to retrain.
Sextus Antio heads for Cisalpine Gaul to weaken the Gaulish army through bribes if possible (but looking at treasury, it is not possible.)

ORDERED:
Caralis: Peasants

-----------------------------------IIX

DONE:
Caralis: Peasants

Sextus Antio sells map info to Gaul for 2600d, then continues for Cisalpine Gaul, where the cities are emptying as armies move towards Gaul proper.
The JEF lands in Italy, is joined by the Senate reward Hastati and moves for Arretium to retrain.

ORDERED
Arretium: Diplomat, Paved Roads
Ariminum: Market

------------------------------------IX

DONE
Arretium: (Dip) Appius Nepos

SENATE:
Herius Mummius: Pont. Max
Praetor: Galerius Vinicianus
Quaestor: Lucius Julius

Sextus Antio moves towards Patavium, selling maps en route for 900d.
Appius Nepos moves for Capua.
Quintus Julius is picked up from Sardinia in preparation to join the JEF.
The JEF enters Arretium and retrains.

ORDERED:
Segesta: Wooden Palisade

------------------------------X

DONE:
Segesta: Wooden Palisade

The JEF heads for the Po river ford southwest of Patavium with the two new factioners.
Quintus Julius sets sail for the coast of Segesta.
Appius Nepos reaches Capua.
Sextus Antio sees signs of hostility in diplomatic relations with the Gauls and just in time too, since it gives the JEF a pretext to invade.

ORDERED:
Caralis: Wooden Palisade
Segesta: Roads

-----------------------------------XI

DONE:
Arretium: Paved Roads
Ariminum: Market
Segesta: Roads
Caralis: Wooden Palisade

The JEF besieges Patavium.
Just a check, but the Senate Trap is still effectively trapping Servius Maxentius. Poor Servius.
Sextus Antio moves to bribe a rebel army of 3 Town Watch.

--------------------------XII
_____________________________________
The JEF storms Patavium.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 925 K: 805 L: 790

Df: Captain Drustan (Gaul)
D: 805 K: 124 L: 0

Clear Victory; Patavium is occupied.
___________________________________________

SENATE: 5000d granted.

Sextus Antio bribes a rebel army of 3 Town Watch for 225d, which heads for Patavium to be divided between the JEF and Patavium garrison duty.
Quintus Julius lands and does not join the JEF, but moves to the westernmost Alpine ford and builds a fort in front of the river ford in there to stop further Gaulish reinforcements from arriving by that route.

ORDERED:
Patavium: Roads
Ariminum: Paved Roads
Caralis: Roads

----------------------------------XIII

PRETURN
Segesta is besieged by a 11-unit Gaulish army.

SENATE: Blockade Carthage (to be ignored)

DONE:
Caralis: Roads
Patavium: Roads

NEW FACTIONER: Manius Julius (Arretium)

Decius Curtius spots a Gaulish army waiting in ambush in the forests just east of Mediolanium.
The JEF takes over two Town Watch from the ex-rebel army while one goes into Patavium to garrison.
Appius Nepos takes ship for Sicily.
________________________________________________
The JEF leaves Patavium and attacks the ambushing Gaulish army, drawing out the garrison of Mediolanium in reinforcement in an attempt to capture Madiolanium by field battle.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 1235 K: 1579 L: 1091

Df: Captain Caratacus (Gaul)
Eporedorix (Gaul)
D: 805 K: 105 L: 18
D: 792 K: 62 L: 1

Heroic Victory; Mediolanium is emptied, and the JEF marches into it and occupies it.
________________________________________________________

Manius Julius heads for the JEF.

ORDERED:
Mediolanium: Town Watch, Roads

-----------------------------------------XIV

PRETURN:
Threatened by the attack on its rear and with its retreat through the Alps blocked, the siege on Segesta is lifted, and the Gaulish army heads for Mediolanium, stopping in the city's red zone having run out of movement points.

DONE:
Mediolanium: Town Watch, Roads

Sextus Antio bribes Senaculus of Sabis of Gaul (Dip) for 1000d.
Senaculus of Sabis moves for Iuvavum via Mediolanium.
Sextus Antio heads for Rome to tackle Servius Maxentius.
Appius Nepos lands on Sicily, but sees no Scipii target bribable yet. Anyhow, it would appear in the Julii interests to not bribe anymore Scipii troops since they will become that much more bribeable after taking Carthage and Sicily.

SNEAK PREVIEW:
___________________________________________
The JEF attacks the Gaulish army outside Mediolanium. Victory will clear Cisalpine Gaul of Gaulish presence and consolidate the empire.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 1435

Df: Lugotorix (Gaul)
D: 1595
_______________________________________




Stay tuned for tomorrow's update!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Fun narrative.

I love the Senate trap...and see the potential for a huge force multiplier later on.

So far you're doing an orthodox strategy, but you certainly don't dawdle -- despite the limitations.

Very interesting -- and all of this with only the one diplomat for most of it.

[pezhetairoi]

I'm assuming that was all complimentary :-P Well, you gotta work with what you have... But I'm pursuing a measured strategy of slow buildup of forces. I'm actually planning, after consolidation in Mediolanium, to take Massilia which is still rebel, and Lugdunum which probably is as well. Then I'll rename my army and station it in Gaul.

1 diplomat is sure one hell of a limitation, you gotta agree. But I just couldn't support any more until I had Patavium.

Strategy so far is orthodox because there isn't yet a need for anything too strange, and because of the limitations of this campaign I don't intend to try anything funny yet... I want to get a feel for it first. I must admit, the pace of the campaign so far has surprised even me, and the Senate trap was entertaining to think of. It's definitely a dazzling opportunity that presented itself, because this is the first time the Senate has placed its main army under the command of a nobody. \

I already actually have a long-term plan in place in my mind, but I always play according to when-the-opportunity-arises, and this campaign so far has been full of gaping holes for my cavalry to rush through, so yeah, I certainly don't dawdle. Part of it was motivated by the fact that I realised I needed the Cisalpine cities to pull me out of debt and fuel my bribing sprees.

I estimate that at 1.0 costs the Senate army will take about 10k to bribe... and I'm only at 3k right now, and I'm not letting up on infrastructure spending, so it will be another 3 turns at least (about the time it will take Sextus Antio to get there) to get enough money to even try bribing. I don't even know if Servius is bribable, though. I've tested with Appius, but he does not have the bribe option enabled. Maybe it's because Appius has no influence whatsoever and Servius has about 3-4.

Iuvavum and Segestica are next, I hope, once I get to them with Senaculus, ceteris paribus. Senaculus is headed for Greece where Brutii armies abound.

I'll say, though... it hurts to see the Archer and Triarii units sitting in Segesta doing nothing except guarding the three home cities... If not for the fact that I -might- need them in future I'd disband them all to save upkeep...

The Seamus Julii: winning the world with Town Watch since 270 BC. Nice challenge, Seamus, it's shaping up to be rather fascinating for me too.

Naval wise, I still leave much to be desired because my treasury is not yet in the clear enough for me to deem it a right time to start my grand fleets. Oh well.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm assuming that was all complimentary :-P Well, you gotta work with what you have... But I'm pursuing a measured strategy of slow buildup of forces. I'm actually planning, after consolidation in Mediolanium, to take Massilia which is still rebel, and Lugdunum which probably is as well. Then I'll rename my army and station it in Gaul.

1 diplomat is sure one hell of a limitation, you gotta agree. But I just couldn't support any more until I had Patavium.

Strategy so far is orthodox because there isn't yet a need for anything too strange, and because of the limitations of this campaign I don't intend to try anything funny yet... I want to get a feel for it first. I must admit, the pace of the campaign so far has surprised even me, and the Senate trap was entertaining to think of. It's definitely a dazzling opportunity that presented itself, because this is the first time the Senate has placed its main army under the command of a nobody. \

I already actually have a long-term plan in place in my mind, but I always play according to when-the-opportunity-arises, and this campaign so far has been full of gaping holes for my cavalry to rush through, so yeah, I certainly don't dawdle. Part of it was motivated by the fact that I realised I needed the Cisalpine cities to pull me out of debt and fuel my bribing sprees.

I estimate that at 1.0 costs the Senate army will take about 10k to bribe... and I'm only at 3k right now, and I'm not letting up on infrastructure spending, so it will be another 3 turns at least (about the time it will take Sextus Antio to get there) to get enough money to even try bribing. I don't even know if Servius is bribable, though. I've tested with Appius, but he does not have the bribe option enabled. Maybe it's because Appius has no influence whatsoever and Servius has about 3-4.

Iuvavum and Segestica are next, I hope, once I get to them with Senaculus, ceteris paribus. Senaculus is headed for Greece where Brutii armies abound.

I'll say, though... it hurts to see the Archer and Triarii units sitting in Segesta doing nothing except guarding the three home cities... If not for the fact that I -might- need them in future I'd disband them all to save upkeep...

The Seamus Julii: winning the world with Town Watch since 270 BC. Nice challenge, Seamus, it's shaping up to be rather fascinating for me too.

Naval wise, I still leave much to be desired because my treasury is not yet in the clear enough for me to deem it a right time to start my grand fleets. Oh well.

Of course it was a compliment! An orthodox strategy is orthodox precisely because it makes a good deal of sense. If anything, I am amazed at how rapidly you've built a workable fighting force despite the limitations. I look forward to seeing how things go once you've got 5-6 dips and a few more spies and killers dashing about.

Actually, I suspect you will disband some more of those initial units, just leaving enough to "leaven" your garrisons. After all, under the constraints I laid, why pay for them -- unless you fear an attack by other Romani?

Will bribing the other roman factions (obviously your best recruitment tool given compatability) get you outlawed early? I know that assassination can...

[Conqueror]

In version 1.2 bribing is a hostile act, but AFAIK not in 1.0. Pez is playing unpatched, thus he can bribe other Romans without getting outlawed.

[pezhetairoi]

Ya. So true. Once I update to turn 24 (as soon as I find time) you'll see that I already have 5-6 dips and I've already amassed enough to make 2 close-to-full-stacks. But I have to stop bribing now, and work with what I've got, because the Senate Trap still exists and the Senate is still not bribed, and guess what, the other two houses are so pathetic that I need to give them time to get more troops to conquer more territories. The Brutii have not yet gone anywhere further than Salona (and I just took Segestica which they were aiming for) while the Scipii have not yet conquered Syracuse despite having a fullstack. Huh.

EDIT: I found time to update.
____________________________________
The JEF attacks the Gaulish army that had besieged Segesta, outside Mediolanium.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 1435 K: 1546 L: 1206

Df: Lugotorix (Gaul)
D: 1595 K: 269 L: 14

Heroic victory; Cisalpine Gaul is secured and Julian Italia is consolidated.
___________________________________________________________

The JEF returns to Mediolanium for retraining.

ORDERED
Patavium: Town Watch, Paved Roads
Mediolanium: Town Watch
Segesta: Trader

-------------------------------------XV

DONE:
Patavium: Town Watch
Mediolanium: Town Watch
Ariminum: Paved Roads

Appius Nepos takes ship for Greece.
Sextus Antio moves to bribe a Brutii army moving towards Ariminum en route to Segestica.
Senaculus of Sabis heads for Iuvavum via Patavium instead.
1 unit of Home Guard Hastati is sent to relieve Quintus Julius at the western alpine fort.
The JEF builds a fort in the Alpine pass leading to Lugdunum, just in time to block a small Gaulish army moving down through it.

ORDERED
Arretium: Biremes
Patavium: Town Watch
Mediolanium: Town Watch, Market

-------------------------------------------XVI

DONE:
Arretium: Biremes
Patavium: Town Watch
Mediolanium: Town Watch
Segesta: Trader

Sextus Antio bribes Titus Brutus,2 units of Hastati and 1 of Velites for 2975d at Ariminum. Titus Brutus' force is named the Vaccae (the Cows, for the heck of it) and moves to join the JEF. Titus Brutus himself moves for Patavium.
The JEF moves for Massilia, crossing the river ford beyond the western fort.
Quintus Julius is relieved and moves for Patavium. These two will form the core of a new army.
Appius Nepos sails for Salona and bribes 2 units of Brutii Hastati (1 decimated), 1 Velites (decimated) and 1 Equites (decimated), for 424d. Named the Decimates, they head for Patavium vis Segestica for retraining.
Senaculus of Sabis heads for Segestica to intercept a Brutii two-unit force moving for Segestica. Iuvavum can wait.

ORDERED
Segesta: Land Clearance
Ariminum: Diplomat
Arretium: Biremes

------------------------------------XVII

SENATE:
Herius Mummius: Pont. Max
Galerius Vinicianus: Consul
Lucius Julius: Aedile
Quaestor: Flavius Julius

DONE
Arretium: Biremes
Patavium: Paved Roads
Ariminum: (Dip) Cnaeus Geta

The JEF continues for Massilia.
Cnaeus Geta heads for Arretium port to take ship for Sicily to assist the inept Scipii in conquering Sicily.
Appius Nepos sells maps to Greece for 5500d, then bribes Zeuxis of Gomphi of Greece for 1000d.
The Decimates at Salona take ship for Ariminum.
Senaculus of Sabis continues for the Brutii army closing in on Segestica.
Sextus Antio moves for Tarentum to bribe armies taking shape there.
Zeuxis of Gomphi heads for Larissa.

ORDERED:
Arretium: Biremes
Patavium: Stables

-----------------------------------XIIX

DONE:
Arretium: Biremes
Segesta: Land Clearance
Mediolanium: Market

Sextus Antio bribes 4 units of Brutii Hastati for 880d, and Kaesoforce (named for their captain) moves north for Patavium.
Senaculus of Sabis bribes the army heading for Segestica for 355d, gaining 1 Velites and 1 Hastati unit. He also bribes a rebel army outside Segestica for 426d to facilitate troop movement.
The Decimates sail into Patavium port.
Senaculus of Sabis bribes Segestica for 2853d, a convenient move since there is now the ex-Brutii army outside it, which promptly moves in to pacify and garrison the town. Segestica will be developed and returned to the Brutii at some later date to facilitate their troop production for Julii advantage.
Cnaeus Geta sails for Sicily.
Zeuxis of Gomphi allies with Macedon after moving to Thessalonica, not a bad move since the Brutii are already allied to it anyway, and sells maps to it for 5320d.
Appius Nepos heads for Greece.
The JEF besieges Massilia.

ORDERED:
Mediolanium: Paved Roads
Ariminum: Militia Barracks, Biremes
Arretium: Peasants
Segestica: Shrine to Jupiter, Town Watch

----------------------------------------XIX

SENATE: Blockade Lilybaeum

DONE:
Ariminum: Biremes
Arretium: Peasants
Segestica: Town Watch, Shrine to Jupiter

NEW FACTIONER:
Decius Julius (Arretium)

Appius Nepos moves to Thermon where Macedonian armies have it besieged. They are bribed for 1000 and 1247d respectively. It is in Julii interests to weaken Macedon for the Brutii and the Greeks.
Zeuxis of Gomphi sells maps to Dacia for 3000d and to Thrace for 5400d at Thessalonica.
Senaculus of Sabis bribes a new rebel army outside Segestica for 426d, then heads for Iuvavum.
The non-Town Watch garrison of Segestica heads for Patavium.
The Decimates head for Mediolanium for retraining as it is the only place with stables and practice ranges. 1 unit of the hastati from the Decimates is earmarked for the JEF.
The Vaccae head for the JEF.
Sextus Antio moves to bribe a rebel army and family member newly appeared in Latium.
The JABA (Julii Army Beyond the Alps) is formed at Patavium with an envisioned strength comprising of 4 factioners, 1 decimated (and retraining) hastati from the Decimates, the ex-garrison of Segestica, Kaesoforce, and the Decimates currently retraining in Mediolanium.
Lucius Julius leaves the siege of Massilia for JABA.
Decius Curtius the spy heads for Narbo Martius planning to sweep through Gaul. The peasants in Arretium are disbanded in Segesta to raise population.
____________________________________________
The JEF storms Massilia.

A: Flavius Julius (Julii)
D: 1383 K: 526 L: 1358
Df: Captain Perdikkas (Rebel)
D: 526 K: 29 L: 0

Clear Victory; Massilia is occupied. Once again I am awed by the effectiveness of pila on hoplites.
_____________________________________________

ORDERED:
Massilia: Shrine to Zeus
Segestica: Town Watch, Roads
Segesta: Barracks
Arretium: Stables

---------------------------------XX

Etna erupts, and the stupid Scipii, with their fullstack on the slopes of the volcano, are decimated (50% casualties at least).

DONE:
Arretium: Biremes
Segestica: Town Watch, Roads
Patavium: Stables
Massilia: Shrine to Jupiter

Sextus Antio bribes the rebel army at Latium for 2730d after it retreats from the Senate faction leader's attack (with the 2-3 hastati that didn't get caught in the Senate trap), gaining Lucius Mallius, 1 unit each of hastati, town watch and peasants. The Rebel force heads for JABA. The peasants are destined for Mediolanium to boost its population.
JABA in Patavium heads for Iuvavum intending to garrison it once Senaculus of Sabis, two tiles ahead of JABA, bribes it. The other elements of JABA move out to catch up with the JABA core.
Zeuxis of Gomphi sells maps to Thrace for 300d. Macedon is refusing to buy maps for any price. It may be time to force the Brutii into a war with Macedon soon, they are getting irritating as allies.
Sextus Antio bribes 2 Scipii Hastati units for 440d. These Scipiones are earmarked for the JEF, and they set off northwards. Appius Nepos bribes away a Greek army for 2185d.
All this while, Cnaeus Geta has been unable to land as the fleet refrains from drawing near the shore due to the presence of a menacing Carthaginian fleet nearby.
Appius Nepos bribes away a Greek army near Thermon for 2185d. It seems to have been headed for Apollonia.

ORDERED
Patavium: Wooden Wall
Segestica: Mines

----------------------------XXI

DONE:
Ariminum: Militia Barracks
Segesta: Barracks
Mediolanium: Paved Roads

Sextus Antio bribes a Scipii Hastati unit and one of Velites for 355d, and this second Scipiones group heads for JEF.
Lilybaeum is blockaded (but Cnaeus Geta not landed) after the Carthaginian fleet is defeated by a Senate-Scipii fleet.
Zeuxis of Gomphi moves to Bylazora, which has been overrun by Dacia, and sells maps for 300d. Planning to cast off Macedon as an ally, Zeuxis instead forges an alliance with Dacia, which is at war with Macedon.
Appius Nepos heads for Larissa to guard the Greeks from Macedon.
Decius Curtius returns to Narbo Martius to maintain watch on a Gaulish 17-unit army that has appeared near Narbo Martius. The JEF is not yet strong enough to take it on until the reinforcement elements arrive.
The JEF stays in Massilia as its hastati units shuttle back and forth between Massilia and the Western alpine fort for merging and replenishment.
JABA advances on Iuvavum.
2 hastati units of the Home Guard are disbanded as the treasury looks set to spiral into debt the next turn.
Senaculus of Sabis comes within 3 tiles of Iuvavum, but looking at it, a battle for the town is unavoidable as there will be nowhere near enough money to bribe it.

ORDERED:
Massilia: Roads

---------------------------------------XXII

SENATE
1000d granted
Equites granted (Arretium)

DONE:
Arretium: Stables
Patavium: Wooden Wall
Segestica: Mines
Massilia: Roads

Bribing is halted as the treasury is under pressure and the two other Roman factions have been badly weakened. They will be allowed to restrengthen and conquer more territories before bribing starts again.
JABA merger begins as the first catch-up units reach it.
The JEF awaits more reinforcements in Massilia before making the next move.

-----------------------------XXIII

The first JEF reinforcements arrive in the form of the Vaccae, and it marches for Lugdunum with 7 Hastati, 2 Town Watch and 5 Factioners.
___________________________________________________
JABA, though not yet fully assembled, nevertheless storms Iuvavum with overwhelming superiority.

A: Decius Julius (Julii)
D: 1945 K: 881 L: 1723
Df: Captain Eporedorix (Rebel)
D: 881 K: 147 L: 0

Clear Victory; Iuvavum is occupied.
___________________________________________________________

ORDERED
Iuvavum: Shrine to Jupiter
Segestica: Trader
Mediolanium: Shrine to Jupiter

------------------------------------XXIV

SENATE: Obtain trade rights with Germania

DONE:
Segesta: Governor's Villa
Caralis: Barracks
Mediolanium: Shrine to Jupiter
Massilia: Trader
Iuvavum: Shrine to Jupiter

The JEF besieges Lugdunum, which has only 1 unit guarding it.
Senaculus of Sabis heads for Mogontiacum to carry out the Senate's orders.
JABA returns to Cisalpine Gaul for retraining.

ORDERED:
Patavium: Peasants
Iuvavum: Roads
__________________________________________--

SNEAK PREVIEW: The storming of Lugdunum, the destruction of the 17-unit Gaulish army, the beginning of the two-prong attack on Gaul, and the forcing of the Brutii into war with Macedon and Greece!

____________________________________

I won't be posting the next update (and what an update it will be!) until Thursday, because i will be away till then... But I'll be playing everyday so I'll have at least 5 turns a day to add.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ya. So true. Once I update to turn 24 (as soon as I find time) you'll see that I already have 5-6 dips and I've already amassed enough to make 2 close-to-full-stacks. But I have to stop bribing now, and work with what I've got, because the Senate Trap still exists and the Senate is still not bribed, and guess what, the other two houses are so pathetic that I need to give them time to get more troops to conquer more territories. The Brutii have not yet gone anywhere further than Salona (and I just took Segestica which they were aiming for) while the Scipii have not yet conquered Syracuse despite having a fullstack. Huh.

Be interesting to see the force comp on those stacks -- what has your money bought you?

Amazing how the Skippies are stalled. Perhaps the Syracusan forces are powerful and his spies are saying to wait?

What is your long-range (turn 50) goal?

Have you acquired any "purchased" family?

[pezhetairoi]

as you can see my money has bought me quite a bit :) The reason why I completely don't understand why the Skippies are stalled is because they have completely no excuse to be stalled. The Syracusans have only 2 units in garrison and no field army in Sicilia Graecus or Poeni, according to reports from Cnaeus Geta. The Carthaginians have only 6 units in Lilybaeum. All these should be no match for the Scipii full-stack.

My long-term (turn 50) goal is to establish a fortified line stretching Vicus Gothi-Vicus Marcomanni-Lovosice-Aquincum-Segestica and hold it with Townwatch, with everything west of that being mine, (A variant of the CCP song-- the West is Red) then patiently wait for Marian reforms and the Scipii and Brutii to strengthen and divide the world between them.

I plan to devote both the JEF (which I shall rename JAG (Julii Army in Gaul)) and the JABA to a quick destruction of Gaul, following which I shall leave Britannia and Germania to tear themselves apart in peace (ironic) while the JEF stays in Gaul to guard the frontier and prepare for operations against Germania while my diplomats run riot among the barbarian hordes. So far you haven't yet seen what my diplomats are capable of :) I haven't done any integrated diplomacy yet, because my treasury isn't capable of supporting it. Once I have Gaul, then the fun starts. :)

I can't stand the Brutii allying with the very people they are meant to destroy. I will remedy that soon.

BTW, I'm modding the Germanian spear warband. They can keep their phalanx (though in all other campaigns I've removed that capability) but their stats are going down from 9-8 to 7-7 to make it fairer for the other factions. As it is now, Germania's splendid isolation is making them one of the richest factions ingame, believe it or not.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Egads!

Rather than limiting you, I think I have actually INCREASED your ability to produce troops. It is as though you have all of Italia building armies for you.

With your growing forces, you should be well positioned to allow the Skippies and Brutes a chance to expand a notch (only to skim off the cream later, no doubt).

Your expansion is solid, certainly no slower than if you'd been using "standard" force arrangements, and well-consolidated.


How has the town watch performed when it came to the spear work? Do you forsee any of them acquiring chevrons?

Have you acquired any "non-standard" mercs or converted rebels? What can't the romans bribe to obtain (other than hefalumps) with their troop mix?


Kudos to you, it also appears as though I am by far NOT the only one following your chronicle of "political" success.

SF

[pezhetairoi]

Heh heh. Egads indeed, it's a rare occasion that I get to update on a holiday, and I don't have me campaign record with me :(

A quick update: I've stopped bribing for now. I am allowing the Scipee and the Brutee to expand, and they have obliged. Scipee now have Sicily and Thapsus. They will not be allowed to take Carthage because I've already taken it with Scipee soldiers, mostly velites. Whoohoo. The Brutee have Salone, Apollonia, THermon, amazingly, Sparta, and are besieging Athens. Looks like they needed no help from me. Giving them Segestica was a wise move because otherwise they would have had no strategic direction.

I'm at turn 40-plus now, and I have annihilated Gaul and Spain is on the brink. I am allied with Thrace and Britannia, and am at war with ONLY Germania. I have now four-and-a-half armies. The ex-Senate army is currently in Spain having just stormed Asturica, together with another one besieging Carthago Nova (stupid Spanish and their fortified mao, they have 17 goddamn units in that goddamn depopulated village), and I have two armies in Germania, one at Mogontiacum and Trier pacifying and ready to move on Batavodurum, and one moving for Damme via Mogontiacum. A half-army is in Carthage, my sole African foothold. It is my objective to hold it to divert Scipee attention away from West Africa (which is MINE, MINE alone) and into the East and a war of attrition with Egypt. The Brutii... let them have Greece. I'll be glad for it. So far I have only my generals as cavalry, only 1 barb cav mercenaries, 1 numidian mercenaries (senate rewards, both) and 2 equites. I have hired no mercenaries, and I see no need to do so.

Bribing-wise, I am getting somewhat disappointed because the Greek armies demand too high a price for me to pay for now, and the barbarians are so weakened that there are no field armies for me to bribe. Currently Britannia's unit count is about 12 in all settlements (I have a diplomat there doing observation) and Germania's is somewhere about the same. Spain has no field armies that I can access because they're all fortified mao =\ Carthage has been reduced to Palma and Corduba, so their main 9-unit army is currently sitting pretty in Corduba. I have a decent fleet of 11 ships and am sitting it in Carthage to add quinqueremes to it (coincidentally the first quinqueremes that I have ever built in 9 campaigns).

Strategically it is my plan to next annihilate Germania and turn on Britannia to secure my rear. After that is done the only theatre of operations left is in Africa. Once I butt up against Africa I will send expeditionary forces to the east to try and snatch shares of Egypt and Asia Minor from the Scipee and Brutee which I expect will have already arrived there. Otherwise I will await the civil war or marian reforms, whichever comes first.

Detailed actions will come, but I'm afraid I've gotten vaguely sick of writing diplomat movements (cos I have so many of them now, 8-9 I think) so unless they do something like sell maps or bribe, I won't be bothering to detail where they go.

Not true that you've made me more powerful, Seamus, you've removed one third of my production :P In normal campaigns I would've built AND bribed. Now I can only bribe.

I sense my lack of cavalry will hurt me soon.

edit: I've elected to spare Macedon from war with the Brutee. They're on the verge of dying anyway. They have only Thessalonica left and the Barbarian hordes are pressing in from the north. Greece was playing around with them, but now Greece is under pressure from Brutee. I don't know. But I'll spare Macedon for now.

Numidia looks to be a 'worthy opponent'. I say worthy because they are incredibly archer-heavy and I'm worried. Very worried. But I have created a four-column deployment strategy that with luck should be able to force any Numidian skirmish army into battle against my hastati if they don't want to be encircled. Will try it out once I invade Tingi, and will see. Of course, there wouldn't be any fun if all it turned out to be was siege battles, which I think will be the case.

[pezhetairoi]

My comp crashed and I lost all my saved game files, halting the game at turn 49. I will be unable to continue, and will post my last update tomorrow before embarking on a new random campaign.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My comp crashed and I lost all my saved game files, halting the game at turn 49. I will be unable to continue, and will post my last update tomorrow before embarking on a new random campaign.

Your computer problems of late must be quite vexing.

Sorry to lose this one (though I will enjoy the last updates), it's been fun to "watch" and learn from.

SF

[pezhetairoi]

yeah you sure will... :) So sorry about the whole thing, though. I was just getting it going... :( 10k a turn in net profits is quite enviable, methinks, with just 16-17 provinces.

[gardibolt]

Even though you weren't able to complete it, getting to 17 provinces with 10K income should be ample proof that it's more than possible to do. Nicely accomplished.

[pezhetairoi]

*bows* RTW opens new avenues in the mind, indeed it does.

[sunsmountain]

hardly a challenge. No bribery and no mercs and then we're talking.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

hardly a challenge. No bribery and no mercs and then we're talking.

As per the original challenge, that would have left Pez' with:

3 well-garrisoned initial cities but unable to build troops aside from watch and peasants.

Unable to bribe troops or bribe off armies.

As good as he is, 50 provinces using assassins, spies, ships, and town watch would be a bit much to expect, no?

SF

[pezhetairoi]

well, fighting Egyptian chariots with town watch would be....challenging? *grimace* Oh yeah, I can see peasants beating spear warbands... o_O

Yeah. But I can live with no mercs--that was my own unofficial rule, since 10 units cap on mercs was as bad as no mercs.

[pezhetairoi]

Anyway. The promised final update.

---------------------------------XXV

SENATE:
Herius Mummius: Pont Max
Galerius Vinicianus: Censor
Lucius Julius: Praetor
Flavius Victor: Aedile

DONE:
Patavium: Peasants
Segestica: Trader
Iuvavum: Roads

JABA returns to Patavium
________________________________-
The JEF is renamed JAG (Julii Army in Gaul) and storms Lugdunum

A: Flavius Victor (Julii)
D: 1545 K: 40 L: 1491
Df: Vindex (Gaul)
D: 40 K: 63 L: 1

Clear Victory; Lugdunum is occupied, but my poor precious hastati...
_________________________________________________

Leaving the Velites units behind to garrison Lugdunum, JABA moves between the Gaulish 17-unit army and Lucco, whose force is west of Lugdunum.
Sextus Antio heads for the Senate Trap.
Senaculus of Sabis bribes a rebel army blocking the way to Germania for 1400d, then establishes trade relations with Germania as per Senate orders, and sells it maps for 4000d over 2 turns.

SENATE: Barb Cav Mercs granted (Arretium)

The Senate reward sets out for JAG.
The peasants from Patavium are sent to disband in Mediolanium to raise population.

ORDERED
Patavium: Peasants
Segesta: Port
Mediolanium: Land Clearance
Arretium: Governor's Palace
Ariminum: Blacksmith

----------------------------------XXVI

PRETURN
_______________________________________
The Gaulish 17-unit army attacks JAG.

A: Brennus (Gaul)
D: 2428 K: 196 L: 16
Df: Flavius Victor (Julii)
D: 1331 K: 2331 L: 1161

Heroic Victory; Soutnern Gaul is secured. Notably, this is only the fourth battle in which I have used an ambushing column in a forest in flank attack in 9 campaigns.
________________________________________________

Lannildut of Britannia gets alliance with the Julii and trade rights, and is sold maps for 4500d.

DONE
Patavium: Peasants
Massilia: Governor's Villa

To capitalise on victory JAG besieges Narbo Martius, and is joined by Hastati reinforcements from Massilia.
JABA leaves for the pass to Lugdunum from Mediolanium en route to Alesia.
The Senate army in the Senate Trap is bribed for 11662d, gaining 3 Velites, 3 Principes, 2 Hastati and 2 Triarii, all of whom are 3 bronze or 1 silver, weapons +2 and defence +1. Herius Mummius and Galerius Vinicianus join this army, and it is named JOB (Julii Overseas Battlegroup). It heads for Arretium port to take ship for Spain as the Julii grand fleet (whatever you call 6ships) sails for Arretium to ferry JOB over.
Cnaeus Geta bribes 2 Scipii Hastati units (1 decimated) and 1 Velites units (decimated) for 406d. It is meant to join JOB through a detour of the JOB ferry-fleet to Sicily. This is called Force 406.
Alliance with Macedon is broken. I am sick of those buggers refusing to give me any money for maps and getting their asses whipped by Greece, and sick of the Brutii not hitting them for six.
Segestica is given to the Brutii to kickstart their [overdue] expansion.
Force 406 besieges Syracuse to force war upon the Scipii, who are at peace with Greece.
Senaculus of Sabis arrives at Mogontiacum.
The Western Alpine fort is evacuated and its Home Guard garrison returned to Segesta, there being no more need for the fort.

ORDERED
Arretium: Peasants
Ariminum: Peasants, Governor's Palace
Patavium: Land Clearance
Iuvavum: Wooden Palisade
Lugdunum: Town Watch
Massilia: Barracks

------------------------------------XXVII

Spain allies with the Julii and is sold maps for 3500d.

DONE
Arretium: Peasants
Ariminum: Peasants
Lugdunum: Town Watch
Segesta: Port
Mediolanium: Land Clearance
Iuvavum: Trader

NEW FACTIONER
Marcus Julius (Arretium)

Cnaeus Geta sells maps to Carthage for 3200d.
The peasants in Arretium and Ariminum are sent to Arretium to join JOB. They will be dropped off at Caralis to populate it.
A large Carthaginian army headed for Messana is bribed by Cnaeus Geta for 2160d. Sextus Antio bribes 2 Scipii Hastati and 1 Velites for 575d at Capua, and another army of the same nearby for 520d. These head for Arretium to join JOB, which has just enough space left for them. Force 406's role changes from reinforcement of JOB to an independent force of intervention as an instrumentof foreign policy.
JABA empties the remaining in the pass to Lugdunum and leaves for Alesia.
Numerous Town Watch units sent from Massilia to Lugdunum are disbanded in Lugdunum, upgrading it.
The capital is moved to Mediolanium.
__________________________________________-
JAG assaults Narbo Martius.

A: Flavius the Mighty (Julii)
D: 1325 K: 480 L: 1235
Df: Belenus (Gaul)
D: 480 K: 83 L: 1

Clear Victory; Narbo Martius is occupied. I justify my unacceptable losses by claiming warlord cavalry and druids.
_________________________________________________

Force 406 maintains siege on Syracuse. It is, of course, intended to weaken the army inside and/or lead the Scipii to join in and/or starve it eventually (over the course of 30-40 turns if need be) into submission so the Scipii can be given it.
_________________________________________________
The cavalry of JAG moves out to crush the new Gaulish faction leader, Lucco. He hasn't even been awarded his expanded bodyguard yet.

A: Flavius the Mighty (Julii)
D: 267 K: 41 L: 267
Df: Lucco (Gaul)
D: 41 K: 0 L:1

Heroic Victory; Lucco never stood a chance.
______________________________________________

Senaculus of Sabis heads for Batavodurum.

ORDERED
Narbo Martius: Shrine to Jupiter, Town Watch
Massilia: Diplomat
Lugdunum: Governor's Villa

---------------------------------------XXIIX

Syracuse sallies and a Greek field army is landed. This is a signal for Force 406 to vamoose to Messana. Thankfully, the Scipii FINALLY besiege Lilybaeum.

DONE:
Narbo Martius: Town Watch, Shrine to Jupiter
Iuvavum: Wooden Palisade
Arretium: Governor's Palace
Ariminum: Blacksmith
Patavium: Land Clearance
Massilia: Barracks, (Dip) Julianus Dentatus

Decius Curtius spots Alesia.
Senaculus of Sabis reaches Batavodurum.
JABA moves for Alesia.
Julianus Dentatus moves to bribe a 108-horse rebel family member and his army.
JOB boards ship for Spain while waiting for the elements bribed at Capua (who have weapons +2) to arrive.

ORDERED
Narbo Martius: Trader

----------------------XXIX

DONE
Lugdunum: Governor's Villa

JABA continues for Alesia.
A large Gaulish 10-unit army marches from the west for Narbo Martius. Julianus Dentatus moves to intercept.
JAG retreats towards Massilia to prevent attack from the Gaulish army--the army is not worth a battle or casualties to destroy.

ORDERED
Massilia: Militia Barracks

------------------------------------XXX

The Turn of the Mysterious and Unexplained:
The Scipi lift the siege on Lilybaeum.
The Gaulish army disappears.
The 108-horse Rebel army disappears.

DONE
Narbo MArtius: Trader

Senaculus of Sabis heads for Damme.
JABA besieges Alesia.
JAG returns to Massilia.
Cnaeus Geta bribes a CArthaginian army in Central Sicily for 520d and another for 240d.
Force 406 besieges Lilybaeum to keep Carthage off balance despite the Scipii respite granted to them.
JOB sails for Spain, dropping off the 2 peasant units on Sardinia en route.

ORDERED
Lugdunum: Paved Roads
Iuvavum: Land Clearance
Massilia: Diplomat

---------------------------------------XXXI

Lilybaeum sallies, and force 406 withdraws to renew the siege next turn.
_______________________________________________
The Battle of Alesia is re-enacted in style with the odds drastically reversed.

A: Captain Matugenus (Gaul)
Erbin of Axona (Gaul)
D: 403 K: 50 L: 0
D: 953 K: 25 L: 1
Df: Decius Julius
D: 2108 K: 1331 L: 2009

Clear Victory; Alesia is occupied. This was an exercise in AI stupidity with the enemy's warbands and swordsmen running for units that I simply retreated from contact while others that they didn't notice came up and whacked them in the rear, routing them before they even caused a single casualty. Need I say more?
___________________________________________________________________

A large Spanish army is sighted heading for Narbo Martius. Eeek. Even JAG would be hard-pressed to stop that one without major bites being taken out of its troop strength. Julianus Dentatus moves to intercept, but it is doubtful that he will succeed because he is low in influence and the treasury is low in denarii.
The Scipii now turn to besieging Syracuse. What the hell is wrong them stupid fickle blueskirts?

DONE
Massilia: (Dip) Placus Pilatus
Ariminum: Governor's Palace

__________________________________
The cavalry of JABA strike a Gaulish factioner near Alesia.

A: Decius Julius (Julii)
D: 338 K: 63 L: 335
Df: Virssucius (Gaul)
D: 63 K: 3 L: 1

Clear Victory; at least Virsuccius managed to hurt some riders but otherwise this solo incursion towards Alesia just loses the Gauls another factioner.
_____________________________________________________

JABA recuperates in Alesia.
JAG units wait for completion of Militia Barracks in Massilia to afford facilities for retraining of the Hastati.
Spain breaks alliance. Perfect, JOB had been intended to transgress over Spanish soil to get to Numantia but can now just storm through Osca to get to Numantia.
JOB sails for Osca.

ORDERED
Lugdunum: Town Watch
Narbo Martius: Town Watch

------------------------XXXII

The Brutii besiege Thermon. At last, after so many turns of seeing one-two unit Brutii forces drift over the Adriatic coast for god knows what, I now see design as these forces begin concentrating into fists.
The Scipii maintain siege on Syracuse.
Inexplicably the Spanish army retreats from Narbo Martius back into Spain.
An inferior German army invades Central Gaul en route for Alesia. This means Germania will have to be invaded in a pre-emptive strike soon.

DONE
Narbo Martius: Town Watch
Massilia: Militia Barracks
Iuvavum: Land Clearance

SENATE: Blockade Corinth.

The far larger JABA enters the red zone of a German army to send a very obvious hint to it.
The Spanish having retreated, Julianus Dentatus moves west to ensure they do not make it past the Pyrenees again.
JAG retrains in Massilia.
JOB sails on for Spain.
Force 406 besieges Lilybaeum.

ORDERED
Caralis: Governor's Villa
Narbo Martius: Governor's Villa
Alesia: Peasants, Shrine to Jupiter
Massilia: Paved Roads
Arretium: Forum
Ariminum: Biremes

---------------------------------------------XXXIII

Lilybaeum sallies, and Force 406 retreats.
Thermon is taken.
Syracuse is taken.
The German army gets the hint from JABA and retreats.

SENATE:
Lucius Julius: Pont Max
Galerius Vinicianus: Censor
Herius Mummius: Consul
Flavius the Mighty: Praetor

DONE
Ariminum: Biremes
Alesia: Peasants,SHrine to Jupiter
Lugdunum: Paved Roads

JABA enters the red zone of a large Gaulish army standing on the bridge west of Alesia, trying to get it to attack JABA.
Julianus Dentatus bribes a Gaulish army for 1300d.
JAG moves for Lemonus.
JOB lands near Osca.

----------------------------XXXIV

DONE
Caralis: Governor's Villa
Narbo Martius: Governor's Villa

JAG moves towards Condate Redonum.
JABA moves for Condate Redonum.
Placus Pilatus bribes a marauding Germania army at lugdunum for 2198d.
JOB besieges Osca.
Julianus Dentatus moves for Iberia to attach to JOB.

____________________________________________________________________

Okay, I have to go, will post till here. I have enough material to last till turn 49, so stay tuned for more next monday.

[pezhetairoi]

----------------------------------XXXV

DONE
Segesta: Market
Massilia: Paved Roads

JABA nears Condate Redonum.
JAG continues for Lemonum.
___________________________________
JOB storms Osca.
A: Marcus Julius (Julii)
D: 2397 K: 288 L: 2276
Df: Lucco (Spain)
D: 288 K: 125 L: 1

Clear victory; Osca is occupied.
_________________________________________
The capital is moved to Massilia.
Senaculus of Sabis returns for Trier.
Julianus Dentatus moves into Iberia and heads for Numantia.
Cnaeus Geta realises it will soon be time to move into Africa, as Sicily is as good as conquered.
Zeuxis of Gomphi moves for Thrace.
Appius Nepos moves for Corinth, but no bribing is to take place despite a full treasury as the Greeks are turning their attentions on Macedon, not on the Brutii. Let them fight it out.
Sextus Antio moves for Capua.

ORDERED
Osca: Militia Barracks
Massilia: Port
Patavium: Peasants

---------------------------------XXXVI

DONE
Patavium: Peasants
Arretium: Forum
Caralis: Port
Narbo Martius: Port

Lilybaeum has been stormed.
Placus Pilatus moves for Samarobriva.
Sextus Antio bribes 2 units of Scipii hastati for 440d.
Julianus Dentatus continues for Numantia.
Senaculus of Sabis heads for Trier, which is threatened by the armies of the Britannic ally. Trier is meant for JAG.
Cnaeus Geta and Force 406 merge and await transportation to Africa.
Maps are sold to Dacia and Thrace for 2000d each, and Thrace allies with the Julii.

ORDERED
Osca: Town Watch
Narbo Martius: Paved Roads
Lugdunum: Market
Alesia: Peasants, Temple of Jupiter
Iuvavum: Barracks
Patavium: Peasants, Shrine to Jupiter
Ariminum: Shrine to Jupiter
Arretium: Shipwright

Damn, have to go again.

[The Stranger]

hmm seems like Pez is a darned good commander. i dont think i can fight with low quality troops, i'm a all out defence strategist and focus on heroic stances vs way larger armies, that can be done with hastati (against high cost) but not with town watch.

i am a bit confused.

D is starting army
K is kills
but is L lost or Left

[pezhetairoi]

oh no, emperor umeu, I used hastati. My armies are all hastati, the only difference that all of them were once Brutii, or Scipii hastati. None of them are built by me. I only use town watch for garrison except in the beginning when I had to use them to supplement my numbers. I think I'm good, but not that good that I can win battles with town watch. :)

D is number deployed, K is number they killed, and L is number they had left. So all those L: 1s mean that I simply slaughtered every soldier before they had a chance to flee off the field. For some strange reason if there's a factioner in the army they always say L: 1 even though there is clearly no one left. Or 2, of there're two factioners, and so on.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I've learned quite a bit vicariously here. Trapping and bribing in tandem, using diplomats as "flying columns" to create an army from nothing. Cool stuff Pez.

On 1.0, I think you'd have to limit yourself to town watch to be in trouble.

SF