Democracy Vs. democracy ?

[caesar44]

Did ever , in history , a democracy attacked another democracy ?
I think not !

[King of Atlantis]

wasnt germany a "democracy".

[caesar44]

When ?

[HomerReborn]

The German "Federation", known as the Holy Roman Empire, attacked (and was attacked) different nations. But it was in no means a democracy.

The best examples of Democracies attacking Democracies probably happened during the Greek period, when the Greek city-states fought amongst themselves quite often-even democratic nations against democratic ones.

[King of Atlantis]

nazi germany was a democracy, corrupt, but it still was one.

[HomerReborn]

Nazi Germany was democracy until Hitler gained authoritarian powers.

Nazi Germany was not a democracy when it declared war on the rest of Europe.

[AggonyDuck]

One problem in here is defining what you mean with a democracy.
I believe most of the wars are started by the leaders, not the people, even in the case of democracies. But anyways lets see what modern wars I can find where a democracy attacks another democracy.

-Falklands Wars 1982
-Indo-Pakistani Wars
-The Arab-Israeli Wars
-Yugoslav Wars

Well there are surely more examples, but can't be bothered to search them.

[caesar44]

The German "Federation", known as the Holy Roman Empire, attacked (and was attacked) different nations. But it was in no means a democracy.

The best examples of Democracies attacking Democracies probably happened during the Greek period, when the Greek city-states fought amongst themselves quite often-even democratic nations against democratic ones.

Please name the city states

[caesar44]

nazi germany was a democracy, corrupt, but it still was one.

Take a look on the dates , it was a democracy until 1933-34 !

[caesar44]

One problem in here is defining what you mean with a democracy.
I believe most of the wars are started by the leaders, not the people, even in the case of democracies. But anyways lets see what modern wars I can find where a democracy attacks another democracy.

-Falklands Wars 1982
-Indo-Pakistani Wars
-The Arab-Israeli Wars
-Yugoslav Wars

Well there are surely more examples, but can't be bothered to search them.

Please check it

1. Argentina was not a democracy in 1982 !!!
2. Pakistan was never a democracy !
3. The Arabs , democracies ? where ?
4. Yugoslavia ? it was a civil war between several south Slavonic "tribes"

[HomerReborn]

Please name the city states

I agree with a previous poster-it does depend upon your definition of democracy.

Sparta had a representative body that fought Athens in the Peloponnesian War. But then again, neither were a full/true democracy.

Prior to the Persian Wars, Athens attacked Aegina.

My aim was more towards "representative" bodies than pure democracies (which have never existed).

[King of Atlantis]

pure democracy did exist in athens. The first people to get to the town meeting would vote.

[sharrukin]

American Revolution, 1775-1783 Britain vs America; The Americans wanted the civil rights granted native-born Englishmen such as representation in parliament and due process of law. The Americans clearly saw English liberty as a role model.

War of 1812 Britain vs America
Boer War 1899-1902 Britain vs Boer Republic
American Civil War, 1861-65 American vs American
Veracruz expedition 1862 Britain vs. Mexico
Franco-Prussian War 1871 Germany vs France
Spanish-American War, 1898
First World War, 1914-18 Britain, France, America vs Germany
French occupation of the Ruhr, 1923 France vs Germany
Second World War, 1940-45 France, Britain, America, Canada vs Finland
Indo-Pakistani war 1948
Former Yugoslavia 1991 Croatia vs. Yugoslavia (both elected leaders, not nice ,but elected)

[HomerReborn]

pure democracy did exist in athens. The first people to get to the town meeting would vote.

Neither women nor slaves were allowed to vote.

This is what I mean by "pure democracy"

[caesar44]

American Revolution, 1775-1783 Britain vs America; The Americans wanted the civil rights granted native-born Englishmen such as representation in parliament and due process of law. The Americans clearly saw English liberty as a role model.

War of 1812 Britain vs America
Boer War 1899-1902 Britain vs Boer Republic
American Civil War, 1861-65 American vs American
Veracruz expedition 1862 Britain vs. Mexico
Franco-Prussian War 1871 Germany vs France
Spanish-American War, 1898
First World War, 1914-18 Britain, France, America vs Germany
French occupation of the Ruhr, 1923 France vs Germany
Second World War, 1940-45 France, Britain, America, Canada vs Finland
Indo-Pakistani war 1948
Former Yugoslavia 1991 Croatia vs. Yugoslavia (both elected leaders, not nice ,but elected)

1. Britain had its first elections in 1835 , so your first 2 examples...
2. Boer republic , a democracy , yes if you see apartheid as one of its values...
3. Civil war its civil war not a war between states
4. In 1862 only the French were in Mexico
5. Prussia , a democracy ? think about it...
6. Spain in 1898 - an absolute monarchy
7. Germany in WWI ? no no it became a democracy after 1918
8. Ruhr ? a good example , but it was an occupation , not a war ! not a single bullet was shot
9. Finland was at war with the USSR ! the US , UK , Canada and France never fought in it !!!
10. Pakistan was a democracy ? with civil rights and the freedom of speech ? no , not today not ever .
11. Yugoslavia - a civil war !

[King of Atlantis]

sparta vs. athens and many other thing like that.

Rome was a democracy(represntative like ours), and they fought greece.

[discovery1]

The American Civil War?

[King of Atlantis]

The American Civil War?

he doesnt count any civil war...

[Grey_Fox]

Britain declared war on Finland during the Russo-Finnish War, although Britain did not actually fight against the Finns.

[Brenus]

Please check it

4. Yugoslavia ? it was a civil war between several south Slavonic "tribes"

It was a War between the same Ethnic group with different religions: Croats, Catholic, Serbs, Orthodox, and Bosniac, Muslim.

[sharrukin]

1. Britain had its first elections in 1835 , so your first 2 examples...

In 1536 King Henry asked for the previous members of Parliament to be re-elected.

"At the national level, many Britons came to take pride in their mixed government, which happily combined monarchical (the hereditary ruler), aristocratic (the hereditary House of Lords), and democratic (the elected House of Commons) elements and also provided for an independent judiciary. The reign of Queen Anne had been marked by parliamentary elections every three years and by keen rivalry between Whig and Tory factions. With the coming of George I, the Whigs were given preference over the Tories, many of whom were sympathetic to the claims of the Stuart pretenders. Under the Septennial Act of 1716, parliamentary elections were required every seven years rather than every three, and direct political participation declined. Parliament was made up of 122 county members and 436 borough members. Virtually all counties and boroughs sent two members to Parliament, but each borough, whether a large city or a tiny village, had its own tradition of choosing its members of Parliament. Even those Britons who lacked the right to vote could claim the rights of petition, jury trial, and freedom from arbitrary arrest."

2. Boer republic , a democracy , yes if you see apartheid as one of its values...

So the United States wasn't a democracy until after the civil war?
Why don't nasty Democracies count?

3. Civil war its civil war not a war between states

It was called the War Between The States. Why don't civil wars count?

4. In 1862 only the French were in Mexico

really?
After much internal struggle, Juárez was re-elected in 1861. Because of financial instability, mainly due to the Mexican-American war, the Mexican Congress suspended foreign debt repayment for two years. The creditors in Europe (England, Spain and France) decided intervention was needed to collect the debts. On December 8th, 1861 the European powers landed and occupied Veracruz, Spain arrived first. By April 11, 1862 after realizing France's intent, England and Spain withdrew their support.

5. Prussia , a democracy ? think about it...
7. Germany in WWI ? no no it became a democracy after 1918

The Imperial Reichstag (imperial parliament) was democratically elected by universal manhood suffrage. It was not a powerful body but it did control the budget. The members of the Reichstag were elected by the people in a secret vote. The kaiser controlled foreign policy and the army through his ministers and the Chancellor. The government needed the approval of the Bundesrat and the Reichstag to enact legislative proposals.

6. Spain in 1898 - an absolute monarchy

After the abdication of Queen Isabella in 1868, the Cortes set up a constitutional monarchy with the Socialist and Anarcho-Syndicalist parties vying for popularity among the lower classes.

8. Ruhr ? a good example , but it was an occupation , not a war ! not a single bullet was shot

Tell that to the dead Germans shot by the French!
BTW, why don't occupations count?

9. Finland was at war with the USSR ! the US , UK , Canada and France never fought in it !!!

US , UK , Canada and France never fought in world war two?
Finland was a part of the Axis powers and we were at war with them.

10. Pakistan was a democracy ? with civil rights and the freedom of speech ? no , not today not ever .

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/sh...timeline2.html

11. Yugoslavia - a civil war !

It seems that you redefine what you think a democracy is or redefine what you think a war is to get the desired result.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

sparta vs. athens and many other thing like that.

Sparta was a republic not a demcracy and that why they fought. The Spartains and most Greeks dispised democracy as the will of the mob. In fact I believe thats what it means. It was the begging of the war between Republicans vs Democrats. Its still going on today.

[lars573]

sharrukin your forgetting Japan in WW1 and WW2.

WW1 Japan vs. Germany

WW2 Japan vs. US/UK+commonwealth and empire

You can say Japan was a democracy because they had a government and constitution based on the Prussian model.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You can say Japan was a democracy because they had a government and constitution based on the Prussian model.

You can say that but youd be wrong. They had an all powerful Emperor. So much for democracy.

[sharrukin]

sharrukin your forgetting Japan in WW1 and WW2.

WW1 Japan vs. Germany

WW2 Japan vs. US/UK+commonwealth and empire

You can say Japan was a democracy because they had a government and constitution based on the Prussian model.

In Japan between the wars that was true, but the major parties voted to dissolve themselves and were absorbed into a single party, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association (IRAA) and the military established almost complete control over the government. Indoctrination and censorship were introduced into education and the media. Naval and army officers occupied most of the important offices, including the prime minister.

There is a difference between a feeble democracy and a military dictatorship. India has a feeble democracy, and it does not operate the way we perhaps think a democracy should, but it is not a dictatorship.

[Marcellus]

India has a feeble democracy, and it does not operate the way we perhaps think a democracy should, but it is not a dictatorship.

What's wrong with Indian democracy?

[econ21]

The original question of this thread is interesting and I don't think we've had one counter-example that stands up so far. I'm not sure what the precise definition of democracy should be, but it would have to include universal suffrage and government decided by contested multi-party elections for it to count by my book. I'd also rule out civil wars or wars where the "democracies" are clearly very immature (e.g. successor states to Yugoslavia). I don't think the Finnish example counts - the UK nearly declared war on Russia in the Winter War and as has been said even later the UK did not attack Finland despite declaring war.

[sharrukin]

What's wrong with Indian democracy?

Corruption and poverty is a big problem in India and while there have been no military bids for power, Mrs Gandhi's "Emergency Rule" came close to dictatorship. The assassination of two Prime Ministers, ethnic and religious violence, armed conflicts with neighbouring countries, and a certain feeling of 'Manifest Destiny' in the Indian subcontinent suggest a few bumps in the road. However given the challenges she faces, India has done amazingly well. Far better I imagine than most people would have thought possible.

Let's be honest though, Indian democracy can get pretty brutal. The political machines that operate in India use violence and intimidation in ways we would find completely unacceptable. Indian democracy has given millions of Indians hope for better and this is one of it's great strengths. India however will not be a democracy like we in the west know, because our governmental system was developed by us with us in mind. India will go her own way IMO and cannot do otherwise as her history and development will prevent a slavish imitation of western ideals.

In India individual rights do not hold the exaggerated position they do in western democracies. Group rights are accorded a greater value than we in the west would really understand, and thus coalition politics are the order of the day. As Parnab Bardhan's pointed out in "India Democracy, sui generis" 59% of Muslims in India think their vote counts, which is a level of confidence higher than in the general American public. India became a democratic state NOT because the people had the power to enforce a say in government but because of the legacy of British rule. This is IMO why group rights are of more import than personal freedoms in India. Power is based on groups because industrialization hadn't given the individual the sense of power that it did in the west.

[King of Atlantis]

Sparta was a republic not a demcracy and that why they fought. The Spartains and most Greeks dispised democracy as the will of the mob. In fact I believe thats what it means. It was the begging of the war between Republicans vs Democrats. Its still going on today.

So, Republics arnet democracies? Then of course no democracy has ever fought cause there has only been one that I know of in the History of man, Athens.

So, explain this thread to me are Republics democracies cause if so then we have given an example of them fighting.

If not this thread is useless, has athens ever fought itself, civil war's dont count.

[sharrukin]

The original question of this thread is interesting and I don't think we've had one counter-example that stands up so far. I'm not sure what the precise definition of democracy should be, but it would have to include universal suffrage and government decided by contested multi-party elections for it to count by my book. I'd also rule out civil wars or wars where the "democracies" are clearly very immature (e.g. successor states to Yugoslavia). I don't think the Finnish example counts - the UK nearly declared war on Russia in the Winter War and as has been said even later the UK did not attack Finland despite declaring war.

By that definition the United States wasn't a democracy in the First World War, as women were given the vote in 1920.

It seems like entirely too narrow of a definition of democracy. If we exclude civil wars, interventions, occupations, feeble democracies, immature democracies, demand universal suffrage, etc, etc aren't we working the evidence to produce a desired answer?

The same types of arguments can be used to prove that dictatorships are really peace loving as the example given is a 'military' dictator, or he was from the nobility so that doesn't count either.