Get off my property

[Red Harvest]

So he was young enough to quit and go join the army during WW1 then. Hes a chicken hawk. He was instrumental in getting the US involved in two world wars.

Since he was working for the Navy, he was in the war effort rather directly. No hypocrisy on his end.

I guess with your logic it would have been better to let the Nazi's and Japanese win WWII, while we sat it out.

[bmolsson]

I guess with your logic it would have been better to let the Nazi's and Japanese win WWII, while we sat it out.

The Nazi would never have won the war, even if US would have sat it out.

[Red Harvest]

The Nazi would never have won the war, even if US would have sat it out.

Great Britain was prevented by collapsing through FDR's efforts--the U.S. wasn't doing the fighting, it was throwing a lifeline. Without Great Britain and the U.S. the Nazi's would have chased the Russians over the mountains. There would have been nothing to tie the Nazi forces down in Western Europe or the Mediterranean.

[bmolsson]

Great Britain was prevented by collapsing through FDR's efforts--the U.S. wasn't doing the fighting, it was throwing a lifeline. Without Great Britain and the U.S. the Nazi's would have chased the Russians over the mountains. There would have been nothing to tie the Nazi forces down in Western Europe or the Mediterranean.

Actually Germany lost the war the day they declared war on Sovietunion. In reality that would mean that Stalingrad was the turning point.

Surely, US was an important support for the allied forces, and all Europeans are greatful for that, but the war was not won by or due to US.

[Red Harvest]

Actually Germany lost the war the day they declared war on Sovietunion. In reality that would mean that Stalingrad was the turning point.

Surely, US was an important support for the allied forces, and all Europeans are greatful for that, but the war was not won by or due to US.

You miss the simple point...the reason he was in big trouble invading Russia, is that he had not finished off the Brits. The Brits were in danger of being starved out and otherwise taken out of action.

You also don't seem to understand that the U.S. was not only providing more fronts for the Nazi's to deal with, but also SUPPLYING the Russians with additional aircraft, tanks and other gear, foodstuffs, etc. The aircraft total alone was ~13,000 U.S. and 8,000 Brit/Canadian. The total of U.S. tanks and self propelled guns was ~8,000 and ~4,000 from Brit/Canadians.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Since he was working for the Navy, he was in the war effort rather directly. No hypocrisy on his end.

No only on yours. Bush was in the ANG and now hes commander in chief so he was in the war effort both times and is therefore no chicken hawk.

[Aenlic]

Bush was AWOL from the ANG for almost a year. Despite having a substantial cash reward available, no one has come forward with proof that Bush ever attended a single ANG duty in Alabama. Both the CO and XO of that unit at the time have stated - on the record - that they do not remember ever meeting ol' Georgie. The only reason he was assigned to Alabama in the first place was because he'd already moved there, abandoning his Houston duty post. It took three requests before his transfer was finally approved. The first two were denied outright.

Bush didn't even serve honorably while he was in Houston. He failed to achieve a required physical for flight status. Whether he just didn't show up or actually failed it is unclear. "Failed to achieve" can mean a lot of things in military speak. He was grounded from flying. He never again regained his flight status. Why? Bush was trained, expensively, to fly jets. And yet, for the last 2/3 of his ANG duty he had no flight status.

He clearly admitted the AWOL, because he later, while still absent, accepted a punitive adminstrative assignment to a Denver ANG office to make up his AWOL time. For those of you unfamiliar with the military, if you go AWOL you can make up the time and still get an honorable discharge. Bush never showed up in Denver either! He never made up his 1 year in Denver as required. Instead, he asked for and recieved an early discharge because he was already enrolled at Harvard Business School. That, right there, shows an obvious intent not to return to the duty post from which he was absent. Now anyone else would have been dishonorably discharged at that point, and possibly even charged; but ol' Georgie's father was then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and in tight with Nixon and about to be appointed Chairman of the RNC. Guard appointments are purely political. It should come as no surprise that the state ANG commander who approved most of these things for ol' Georgie was later appointed national commander of the ANG by Daddy Bush when Daddy was finally president. That was the same man who bumped ol' Georgie over 500 other applicants for the Texas ANG, all of whom scored higher than Georgie in testing and had been on the waiting list longer. Why? Daddy. When Georgie entered the ANG, Daddy was a U.S. Congressman from Texas. When Georgie lost his flight status and ran off to Alabama (before getting permission!), Daddy was U.N. Ambassador. When Georgie never showed up in Denver and then asked for an received an early, and entirely undeserved, honorable discharge, Daddy was Chairman of the RNC.

Because of Daddy's influence, as a Congressman, Ambassador to the U.N. and RNC Chairman, Georgie was allowed to get away with being a deserter. That's right. I said deserter. Article 85 of the UCMJ is pretty clear. Since he was gone for more than 30 days, the military may assume he never intended to return. In fact, he never did return, and displayed his intent blatantly by entering Harvard Business School while he was supposed to be serving his AWOL time in Denver. Why wasn't Article 85 applied? Daddy. Plain and simple. Cut and dried. If he'd been a poor black man guilty of the same offense, then would have been in prison. Wonderful thing, wealth, power and privilege. Makes a real man out you. A real chicken hawk of a man.

[Red Harvest]

No only on yours. Bush was in the ANG and now hes commander in chief so he was in the war effort both times and is therefore no chicken hawk.

Hiding in the ANG? That isn't in the war effort, that's hiding from it. Of family members I know of who served in the guard at the time, I can safely say that none of them wanted to go to Vietnam. The ones who did want to go to Vietnam did not serve in the Guard, and they went.

The ANG MAKES him a chickenhawk extraordaniare. He had strings pulled to get the position, was a discipline problem, failed to fulfill his obligations, etc., didn't even find it necessary to keep his flight status. What useful service was he performing in the ANG? He couldn't even be bothered to do his job. He struts around saying what a great "War President" he is despite mismanaging the two wars he has on his hands right now. Quintessential chickenhawk.

[bmolsson]

Had Hitler listened to his generals,

Well, he didn't. If he would have listened, there would most probably never been a WWII anyway.....

[KukriKhan]

Pretty good work, folks...it took 5 and a half pages for this one to derail into personal bickering and one-to-one sniping.

Warning: Any further name-calling hurled at another member will result in unpleasant sanctions.

Back on-topic: Does anyone know if Ms. Sheehan received and/or cashed the survivors' benefit check that should have been issued after her son's death? The debate in the op/ed media over her 'moral high ground' might be affected by that information.

[Strike For The South]

5 cand a half thats got to be record

[Redleg]

Back on-topic: Does anyone know if Ms. Sheehan received and/or cashed the survivors' benefit check that should have been issued after her son's death? The debate in the op/ed media over her 'moral high ground' might be affected by that information.

I do not beleive such things are a matter of public record - however I would image that if he had the SGLI someone has recieved payment.

[bmolsson]

Wow. That's the biggest load of revisionist BS i've seen this week.

Why ?