Your feeling on Illegal Immigration into the U.S.

[PanzerJaeger]

hehe, anyone in real estate will tell you mexicans are a godsend.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I'm pretty entertained by the construction industry hiring relatively unskilled Mexicans to do skilled jobs only to have to then go employ skilled U.S. workers to fix the mess that had been made. I don't know if those Mexicans are illegals or not but they are definitely being used to get cheaper labour than that offered by long established U.S. businesses. I suppose if you use any non-skilled workers to do unskilled jobs you'd get the same results.

Talking of unskilled workers doing skilled jobs, I'm currently doing a special offer on heart surgery if anybody's interested, much cheaper than an actual surgeon.

Disclaimer: this is not always the case with Mexicans in the construction industry but it is definitely something that I have observed (in one case whilst sitting in a coffee shop in a half completed strip mall, wondering what the heck a couple of Mexican workers were doing on the uncompleted half: you had to be there, it was like Laurel and Hardy spend a day on a building site).

[bmolsson]

I'm pretty entertained by the construction industry hiring relatively unskilled Mexicans to do skilled jobs only to have to then go employ skilled U.S. workers to fix the mess that had been made. I don't know if those Mexicans are illegals or not but they are definitely being used to get cheaper labour than that offered by long established U.S. businesses. I suppose if you use any non-skilled workers to do unskilled jobs you'd get the same results.

Talking of unskilled workers doing skilled jobs, I'm currently doing a special offer on heart surgery if anybody's interested, much cheaper than an actual surgeon.

Disclaimer: this is not always the case with Mexicans in the construction industry but it is definitely something that I have observed (in one case whilst sitting in a coffee shop in a half completed strip mall, wondering what the heck a couple of Mexican workers were doing on the uncompleted half: you had to be there, it was like Laurel and Hardy spend a day on a building site).

You would be surprised how nice houses they have in Mexico, all built by Mexicans. Furthermore, the surgeons in Mexico knows how to do hearts as well.....

[Idaho]

Regarding the problem in the US, I present (fresh from a similar argument elsewhere)


The Arkajaean Solution.

...

That is the exact same people the PC whiners are usually whining about for giving miniscule wages to their employees.

...

Hows that for an enormous blow to the PC brigade?

Your suggestions are fairly reasonable compared to most. (I have more fundamental ideological disagreements, but I won't go into those).

However you do spoil the effect with meaningless references to PC Brigades.

[Adrian II]

None.

I have no feeling on illegal immigration into the United States.

This is a great relief to me. I saw this thread earlier and automatically skipped it. I consciously skipped it again half an hour ago, in between work assignments, and then it occurred to me that it is highly unusual and quite pleasant that I have no feelings on a subject, none whatsoever. That hasn't happened to me in a long, long time. And it never happens, to my own chagrin, since I have become a journalist. And low and behold, here it does. As I look into this thread, my mind is like an empty cup full of oneness.

Thank you, friend.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I have no feeling on illegal immigration into the United States.

Why should you as it dosent concern you ?

This is a great relief to me.

Isnt this a contratidiction considering you just said you have no feelings on the matter?

[Adrian II]

Why should you as it dosent concern you ?



Isnt this a contratidiction considering you just said you have no feelings on the matter?

Oooommmmm...

[Es Arkajae]

You realize of course this has been done once in completly by Ronald Regean. Regean granted a general immirgration amnesty back around 1985 if I remember correcty, and it has lead to some of the current immigration problems concerning illegals - especially since every administration since then has not attempt to enforce the immigration laws or man the border to prevent illegal crossings. Then one must address the states who when they do a traffic stop - find the illegal - do absolutely nothing to that illegal under those circumstances.

...unbloody believable.

Did you even read my damned post or did you just post the above nonsense as soon as what passes for your brain thought of it?

Whatever it is you said Reagan did is nothing like what I brought up.

I suggest next time you 'snip' my post after you've actually read it.

[Es Arkajae]

Your suggestions are fairly reasonable compared to most. (I have more fundamental ideological disagreements, but I won't go into those).

However you do spoil the effect with meaningless references to PC Brigades.

My solution is either reasonable or it is not , my mention of 'PC brigades' is a very real concern as in a supreme act of irony, it is those fools along with big businesses who stand most in the way of proper border control in the US.

The type of people who cry 'racism' when anyone dares to question their own country's immigration and border control policies. 'PC brigade' is a rather tame description for such ignorant people I would think.

You're entitled to dislike it though.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Did you even read my damned post or did you just post the above nonsense as soon as what passes for your brain thought of it?

Get out on the wrong side of the bed today? No need to personally assualt the man.

Whatever it is you said Reagan did is nothing like what I brought up.

Im afraid he did declare amesty. If we do it again others will keep sneaking in here waiting for the next.

Step 2) Declare a single mandatory minimum wage for BOTH US citizens and non-US citizens, also give both equal or near equal rights in such things as employer provided insurance etc.. This eliminates the incentive for businesses to hire foreigners over American citizens. At the same time vastly increase the penalties for hiring illegal immigrants providing a disincentive.

We already have a single mandatory minimum wage.

Another beautiful thing about my suggestions is the Amnesty for all immigrants and their immediate families who have lived in the country 5 years or more.

Studies have repeatedly found that often the people MOST against further immigration are immigrant families themselves.

By making these people citizens, legitimising them and giving them security in the country one can most likely then rely on their support in the voting booths for measures to curb or stop further illegal immigration. Hows that for an enormous blow to the PC brigade?

This is exactly what the Reagan administration claimed and you can see it was wrong. Though you claim he did no such thing. The rest of your plan is ok but the republicans already have such a plan and its better then yours.

[Proletariat]

Did you even read my damned post or did you just post the above nonsense as soon as what passes for your brain thought of it?

Holy Uncouth Rejoinder, Batman!

[Redleg]

...unbloody believable.

Did you even read my damned post or did you just post the above nonsense as soon as what passes for your brain thought of it?

Whatever it is you said Reagan did is nothing like what I brought up.

I suggest next time you 'snip' my post after you've actually read it.

okay the proof about your point number one being tried before.

To refresh your memory the point I was refering to is this

Step1) Declare a one off amnesty for all illegals (and their immediate/live in families) inside the US who can prove that they have lived there for 5 years or more. These people must then register with the tax department and either apply for citizenship or operate under the laws applying to foreigners living inside the US. Then start tracking down the rest who don't qualify, no more amnesties in future.

Some interesting information for the un-informed and stupidty in your above rant. (again if you make it personal - I make it personal)

In 1986 under President Ronald Reagan, a general-amnesty program was put in place whereby approximately 2.7 million illegal aliens were granted legal status. In addition, Congress enacted a new set of laws and policies aimed at eliminating illegal immigration. The result? Rather than looking at 2.7 million illegal aliens, we now are faced with the problem of 8 million to 12 million people who are inside the United States illegally. Clearly the efforts did not end illegal immigration, but rather sent the message that illegal behavior can be rewarded. Is that really the message the United States wants to send again?

Opps forgot to link that one

President Ronald Reagan granted amnesty to illegal immigrants when he signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 that affected mostly Latino immigrants living in the United States since 1982.

Of the nearly 4 million illegal immigrants eligible to apply for legal residency under the 1986 law, 55 percent were from Mexico, according to the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. The law gave immigrants who came to America before 1982 one year, between May 1987 and May 1988, to apply for temporary resident status and permits for employment.

Gee that does look like a five year time period does it not. 1987 minus 1982 = 5 years. You should be feeling a little weak about now for making such an idiotic statement.

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/U...6/bush.mexico/

And in all fairness the Clinton adminstration also purposed something along the same lines

Democrats have sought passage of what they call the Latino and Immigrant Fairness Act. It would grant amnesty to illegal aliens from Honduras, Guatemala, Haiti and El Salvador who arrived before Dec. 1, 1995. Immigrants from Nicaragua and Cuba received such consideration through legislation passed by the Republican-led Congress in 1996.

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2.../27/220423.txt


And in even more recent news dating around the 2001 timeframe - President Bush also talked about doing the same thing

The Bush administration is considering a proposal to give the more than 3 million illegal Mexican nationals in the United States legal status to remain, senior administration officials said Monday.

Which is linked already for the Regean Adminstration amnesty program

I suggest you learn how to argue the point not the individual. Try researching a little more before accusing others of Did you even read my damned post or did you just post the above nonsense as soon as what passes for your brain thought of it?

To criticize the rest of that point - how are you going to prove that an illegal has been living in the United States for 5 years - when they have been living in the United States illegally.

Boy should I rachet up the personal insults because of your actions?

[Idaho]

Yeah there are some people on the boards it is fair game to have a poke at - me, Jag, panzer, gawain. Redleg is not one of them

[Redleg]

Yeah there are some people on the boards it is fair game to have a poke at - me, Jag, panzer, gawain. Redleg is not one of them

He is new to the boards - and idealistic in his comments - only time one can accuse me of spouting off at the mouth is anti-war protestors and communists.

[Devastatin Dave]

Yeah there are some people on the boards it is fair game to have a poke at - me, Jag, panzer, gawain. Redleg is not one of them

**pokes Idaho**

[Es Arkajae]

Redleg you deserved every singleounce of scorn I poured on your last post. and the manner in which I addressed you was as tame as hell, grow some skin.

I present a PROGRAM for addressing the illegal immigrant problem and you focus on ONE point amongst SIX and then what?...

"especially since every administration since then has not attempt to enforce the immigration laws or man the border to prevent illegal crossings. Then one must address the states who when they do a traffic stop - find the illegal - do absolutely nothing to that illegal under those circumstances."


Did you then completely MISS the rest of my post?, the other FIVE points?


The ONE OFF amnesty is to remove a glut, it is also to helps avoid the politically damaging and problematical issue of removing deeply entrenched illegals and their families (some of whom have been born in the US).

i.e. it makes the subsequent job of cleaning out the house somewhat easier and also helps to undermine arguments against any campaign to clean out illegals. By removing a potentially vexing problem.

As for proving residency for five years that is the illegal immigrants problem and not the US governnments, electricity or phone bills or medical records etc. should be enough proof I would imagine in the large majority of cases.


You have the discourtesy to ignore most of my post, then reply to it and now it appears you're so bloody ignorant that you don't even realise the problem.

Wake up to yourself.

[Redleg]

Redleg you deserved every singleounce of scorn I poured on your last post. and the manner in which I addressed you was as tame as hell, grow some skin.

Then you sir need to learn to be more civil and read the rules of the forum.

I present a PROGRAM for addressing the illegal immigrant problem and you focus on ONE point amongst SIX and then what?...

And all I was responding to was that the amnesty has been tried before, because that is the issue I initially wished to address.

"especially since every administration since then has not attempt to enforce the immigration laws or man the border to prevent illegal crossings. Then one must address the states who when they do a traffic stop - find the illegal - do absolutely nothing to that illegal under those circumstances."


Did you then completely MISS the rest of my post?, the other FIVE points?

Oh I didn't miss the rest of your post at all - I was again was responding about the amnesty point. Your scorn and idiotic outburst was directed at the individual - not at reading to the point I was responding to.

The ONE OFF amnesty is to remove a glut, it is also to helps avoid the politically damaging and problematical issue of removing deeply entrenched illegals and their families (some of whom have been born in the US).

And has stated it has been done before - same problems still exist from the previous attempt at amnesty.

i.e. it makes the subsequent job of cleaning out the house somewhat easier and also helps to undermine arguments against any campaign to clean out illegals. By removing a potentially vexing problem.

Nope the amnesty creates other problems also.

As for proving residency for five years that is the illegal immigrants problem and not the US governnments, electricity or phone bills or medical records etc. should be enough proof I would imagine in the large majority of cases.

Then you don't know much about how illegal immigrants live.

You have the discourtesy to ignore most of my post, then reply to it and now it appears you're so bloody ignorant that you don't even realise the problem.
Wake up to yourself.

You assume to much. Try again. You want to make it personal I see.

So to point out the flaws and other idiotic and already tried points in your issue. It seems that you failed to research to see how many of your points are either already in place and failing - or have already been tried and failed. However they were so unimportant that I didn't bother to respond to them because of civility.

The Arkajaean Solution.

Step1) Declare a one off amnesty for all illegals (and their immediate/live in families) inside the US who can prove that they have lived there for 5 years or more. These people must then register with the tax department and either apply for citizenship or operate under the laws applying to foreigners living inside the US. Then start tracking down the rest who don't qualify, no more amnesties in future.

See the last two post.

Step 2) Declare a single mandatory minimum wage for BOTH US citizens and non-US citizens, also give both equal or near equal rights in such things as employer provided insurance etc.. This eliminates the incentive for businesses to hire foreigners over American citizens. At the same time vastly increase the penalties for hiring illegal immigrants providing a disincentive.

The minimum wage is already mandatory for all legal workers in the United States. All one has to do is enforce the already established labor laws. You might want to check out the wording on the Minimum Wage Acts. Their is no incentive for businesses to hire foreigner workers over American Citizens in the United States - unless the labour is here illegal - and there are laws already in place to fine business that do so - the problem once again is enforcement not new legislation.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor standards affecting full-time and part-time workers in the private sector and in Federal, State, and local governments. Covered nonexempt workers are entitled to a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour. Overtime pay at a rate of not less than one and one-half times their regular rates of pay is required after 40 hours of work in a workweek.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news...rests/?CNN=yes

Courtney said the penalty for knowingly hiring illegal workers can run up to $10,000 per person. He declined to give the names of the contractors who hired the workers picked up Thursday.

"People have to be authorized to work in the United States," said Courtney. "We are serious about enforcing the law

Step 3) Increase border patrol budget to allow for proper surveillance and policing of border. It doesn't have to be the Great Wall of China, it just has to prevent any largescale movement and provide a genuine barrier to criminals.

Care to explain the recent hiring of an additional Border Patrol agents already in the works - and about the only point of yours that I agreed with that needs even more then the current amount of agents.

Step 4) Announce bounty program, giving rewards to any person (US citizen or not) who provides information leading to the arrest of an illegal immigrant. All tip offs and payments can be kept anonymous.

So advocating the Wild Wild West approach - the bounty idea is wrong on so many points that its not worth addressing because it is ridiculous on its face

Step 5) Bring in laws allowing local governments to seize assets in excess of $1000 USD acquired in the US by illegal immigrants.

Violates the Constitution by the way - Unlawful searches and seizures by the government - amd so hard for the government to prove. Then once again there are already laws about what the government can take from the illegal as part of the deportation process. No need for new laws - when the already established laws just need to be enforced.

Step 6) Create waystations for processing illegal immigrants, before returning them to their country of origin.

Already in place and functioning in many places - something you would know if you bothered to check the immigration and border patrol sites.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se...l/overview.xml

Oh by the way - have a nice day

[Ser Clegane]

Redleg you deserved every singleounce of scorn I poured on your last post. and the manner in which I addressed you was as tame as hell, grow some skin.

Actually I would prefer it if the patrons here develop a civilized posting style instead of other patrons having to "grow some skin".

Please stick to discussing the issue instead of resorting to personal attacks

[Mongoose]

So advocating the Wild Wild West approach - the bounty idea is wrong on so many points that its not worth addressing because it is ridiculous on its face

Perhaps you could explain this part of your post alittle more?

Not that i like the idea of having armed mobs searching the streets or anything....

[Redleg]

Perhaps you could explain this part of your post alittle more?

Not that i like the idea of having armed mobs searching the streets of anything....

Well I was using an emotional appeal form of arguement - but what it means do we really want to reward people for doing what they are suppose to do anyway. If you see an illegal activity - as a citizen you should be reporting it to the authorities without expecting the government to reward you for doing what you are suppose to do anyway.

Illegal immigrants are not reported for the most part - because they try not to break the law other then the one they broke to come into the United States - and how are you going to determine if that person is illegal.

This advocates citizens calling the law on other citizens because their skin color might be different. It advocates citizens going up and asking others if they are illegal citizens.

And so many more issues with it - hell people could try to make a living just turning every hispanic in that they see - it will overload the already overloaded Border Patrol.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I dont like the illegals because they compete with my dads roofing company...for about half price But the shingles are all out of line and they dont flash the chimneys right....so no one will hire them any more


If we just deport them they will come back....what the hell can we do to make them stay where they belong

[Mongoose]

Well I was using an emotional appeal form of arguement - but what it means do we really want to reward people for doing what they are suppose to do anyway. If you see an illegal activity - as a citizen you should be reporting it to the authorities without expecting the government to reward you for doing what you are suppose to do anyway.

Illegal immigrants are not reported for the most part - because they try not to break the law other then the one they broke to come into the United States - and how are you going to determine if that person is illegal.

This advocates citizens calling the law on other citizens because their skin color might be different. It advocates citizens going up and asking others if they are illegal citizens.

And so many more issues with it - hell people could try to make a living just turning every hispanic in that they see - it will overload the already overloaded Border Patrol.

I agree. Though i think that the opposite would work (IE: Heavier consequences for companies that intentionally hire Illegal immigrants)


Why do i only see the typos in my posts after people have quoted me?

[Redleg]

If we just deport them they will come back....what the hell can we do to make them stay where they belong

An old issue - where our economic growth is like a shinning bright light of hope to those who have nothing - and their governments are so corrupt that the people do not see any benefit in remaining in their country of birth.

[Idaho]

**pokes Idaho**

Oh - no there.. just a little to the left.. no.. a bit more.. down a bit - BINGO!

[Redleg]

I agree. Though i think that the opposite would work (IE: Heavier consequences for companies that intentionally hire Illegal immigrants)

That is way the current laws need to be enforced - there are hefty fines and business can be shut down that continually violated the law. The problem is that these laws are not enforced to the extend to make it painful to employers that hire illegal immigrants

Why do i only see the typos in my posts after people have quoted me?

Hell I often don't see mine even after people quote me - I need lots of help sometimes with my typos

[Es Arkajae]

Then you sir need to learn to be more civil and read the rules of the forum.

And strangely enough it seems you need to learn how to read.

And all I was responding to was that the amnesty has been tried before, because that is the issue I initially wished to address.

LOL!

More like thats the only bit you read before you posted your silly reply.

Oh I didn't miss the rest of your post at all - I was again was responding about the amnesty point. Your scorn and idiotic outburst was directed at the individual - not at reading to the point I was responding to.

Add lying to your list of faults then Redleg.

Your reply:

"especially since every administration since then has not attempt to enforce the immigration laws or man the border to prevent illegal crossings. Then one must address the states who when they do a traffic stop - find the illegal - do absolutely nothing to that illegal under those circumstances."

Clearly indicates that you didn't have a damned clue what the rest of my post reffered to else you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment after supposedly 'reading' it.

And drop the victim rubbish, you show complete discourtesy by responding to my post without having even read it properly, you then compound this with further ignorance when you don't even see what you've done and now you're just flat out lying about it.

And has stated it has been done before - same problems still exist from the previous attempt at amnesty.

And?, were these part of a larger plan such as I envision?

That would be no. Keep coming up with those irrelevent points mate.

Nope the amnesty creates other problems also.

Welcome to the real world where nothing is perfect, the one off amnesty is neccessary in a program such as I envision to get around the problem I have already pointed out. If the best you can do is say "its not perfect" then you may as well stop posting and change your title to 'captain obvious' whilst you're at it.

Then you don't know much about how illegal immigrants live.

Is that the best you can do?

As I said, it is their problem to prove their residency not the US governments. I pointed out some means for them to do this. If I could I'd throw every single illegal back across the border on general principle and to hell with how long they'd lived there, however the reality of the situation dictates this measure. However I see no reason for the US government to exert itself to do these people any favours.

You assume to much. Try again. You want to make it personal I see.

So to point out the flaws and other idiotic and already tried points in your issue. It seems that you failed to research to see how many of your points are either already in place and failing - or have already been tried and failed. However they were so unimportant that I didn't bother to respond to them because of civility.

You didn't address the other points because you skipped over them, BECAUSE you skipped over them you made a non-sensical post on the first STEP and I called you on it and you have been backpeddling ever since.

See the last two post.

I've already shot down your last two posts.

The minimum wage is already mandatory for all legal workers in the United States. All one has to do is enforce the already established labor laws. You might want to check out the wording on the Minimum Wage Acts. Their is no incentive for businesses to hire foreigner workers over American Citizens in the United States - unless the labour is here illegal - and there are laws already in place to fine business that do so - the problem once again is enforcement not new legislation.

I highlighted the important parts.. see below

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor standards affecting full-time and part-time workers in the private sector and in Federal, State, and local governments. Covered nonexempt workers are entitled to a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour. Overtime pay at a rate of not less than one and one-half times their regular rates of pay is required after 40 hours of work in a workweek.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news...rests/?CNN=yes


Courtney said the penalty for knowingly hiring illegal workers can run up to $10,000 per person. He declined to give the names of the contractors who hired the workers picked up Thursday.

And so since your first passage is made redundant by the fact that it applies only to legal workers your entire counter-point resolves to the fine.

BUT as it would seem I already acknowledged that the fine exists and that I argued for its INCREASE, this point is rendered moot as well.

You're not having a good day are you mate?

"People have to be authorized to work in the United States," said Courtney. "We are serious about enforcing the law

Sure just like the US Federal government is serious about keeping out illegals LOL!

Care to explain the recent hiring of an additional Border Patrol agents already in the works - and about the only point of yours that I agreed with that needs even more then the current amount of agents.

Care to explain two State governorss declaring emergencies to try and provide funding to protect the US border from foreign intrusion, something supposedly the Federal governments job?

Care to explain anything upto and above 8 million illegal immigrants in the US?

So advocating the Wild Wild West approach - the bounty idea is wrong on so many points that its not worth addressing because it is ridiculous on its face

Translation: I have no proper counter-argument for this and so must bleat some emotionalist claptrap and then avoid it.

Its no different than police offering rewards for information leading to the capture of criminals, in fact thats EXACTLY what it is.

Violates the Constitution by the way - Unlawful searches and seizures by the government - amd so hard for the government to prove. Then once again there are already laws about what the government can take from the illegal as part of the deportation process. No need for new laws - when the already established laws just need to be enforced.

This law would allow the freezing of bank accounts and all significant funds and assets procured brought about by the illegals activities. Pretty good incentive for local governments to get in on the 'dob in an illegal' campaign I'd say. An illegal can go from well off to broke in an instant and the local government reaps the rewards and the money goes back to the US people where it belongs. I doubt the current laws go so far into it as that, if so thoug I'd love to see it. Consider it an excuse for you to post some more links to try and impress people.

Already in place and functioning in many places - something you would know if you bothered to check the immigration and border patrol sites.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se...l/overview.xml

Oh by the way - have a nice day

Nice try redleg, I'm afraid you'll have to do more than just post a link to the 'border patrol' website homepage and then go "so there!"

Considering the US has up to 8 million illegals in the country I think its fairly safe to say that illegal immigration hasn't been pursued properly.

A system such as Australias where illegal immigrants and asylum seekers are placed in detention centres and not allowed out until being sent home (or in rare cases allowed in) works as a great disincentive, it also keeps them out of the community.

Initially after my Solutions implementation probably many large detention centres would have to be set up to handle the glut, overtime though one would expect the number of inmates to decline as many were sent home, and the numbr of incoming illegals dropped.

Oh and I've been having a wonderful day thankyou.

[Redleg]

And strangely enough it seems you need to learn how to read.

LOL!

More like thats the only bit you read before you posted your silly reply.

Add lying to your list of faults then Redleg.

More personal insults - someone is after a warning from the moderators I think

Your reply:

"especially since every administration since then has not attempt to enforce the immigration laws or man the border to prevent illegal crossings. Then one must address the states who when they do a traffic stop - find the illegal - do absolutely nothing to that illegal under those circumstances."

Clearly indicates that you didn't have a damned clue what the rest of my post reffered to else you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment after supposedly 'reading' it.

Again with the insults - I see maybe I should respond in like manner? However again this comment only shows that you didn't like my comment - not that I did not read your post. Seems someone has a problem with arguing the position verus the person

And drop the victim rubbish, you show complete discourtesy by responding to my post without having even read it properly, you then compound this with further ignorance when you don't even see what you've done and now you're just flat out lying about it.

Oh the insults just keep coming - prove that I am lying about reading the whole post before posting. You can not show it. However you are showing that you have a problem with someone that disagrees with your position. There is a word for that - and since its often used incorrectly on this forum - you are providing a perfect examble of the true meaning of the word bigot.

And?, were these part of a larger plan such as I envision?

Well since all of your measures other then the bounty concept are already establish laws - your vision is already been thought off by Regean.

That would be no. Keep coming up with those irrelevent points mate.

LOL

Welcome to the real world where nothing is perfect, the one off amnesty is neccessary in a program such as I envision to get around the problem I have already pointed out. If the best you can do is say "its not perfect" then you may as well stop posting and change your title to 'captain obvious' whilst you're at it.

Like I said you show poor research skills - all your points are already existing law.

Is that the best you can do?

Not at all - however you might want to first understand where the majority of the illegal immigrants work. On the west coast they are primary migrant workers travelling from California to Washington picking crops - ie no address, then the ones in the rural areas of the country work on farms where the rancher and farmer provide them with housing - again no address in their names, then the construction workers also follow the same migrantion pattern as the work. Only those in the service area might have an address - but even that is doubtful.

However if you want me to be uncivil and argue the person verus the issue - I can be much worse. Your just a little child compared to some of the individuals I have had little battles with. Hell Idaho and Tribesman would present a worthy challenge at insults for me - your just a little child compared to them.

As I said, it is their problem to prove their residency not the US governments. I pointed out some means for them to do this. If I could I'd throw every single illegal back across the border on general principle and to hell with how long they'd lived there, however the reality of the situation dictates this measure. However I see no reason for the US government to exert itself to do these people any favours.

LOL - that is the difference - I know what these people go through to get into the United States. And its up to the government to prove the case against them before they deport them. That is the nature of innocent until proven guilty. I see someone is in favor of suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus just to deport illegal immigrants

You didn't address the other points because you skipped over them, BECAUSE you skipped over them you made a non-sensical post on the first STEP and I called you on it and you have been backpeddling ever since.

You haven't seen me backpeddle yet - your other four points like I stated were not worth discussing after the first one. Hell only two people on this board have ever gotten me to backpeddle - again see how Tribesman or Adrian have argued issues with me - and Adrian is the only one that has come close to getting me to back peddle.

I've already shot down your last two posts.

Your opinion - however it seems you didn't realize Regean granted an amnestity that covered a five year period like your initial suggestion - which was exactly my first post.

I highlighted the important parts.. see below

I noticed you highlighted the exact point I made. Very good - your not as idiotic as I first assumed.

And so since your first passage is made redundant by the fact that it applies only to legal workers your entire counter-point resolves to the fine.

BUT as it would seem I already acknowledged that the fine exists and that I argued for its INCREASE, this point is rendered moot as well.

Not at all since I advocate the enforcement of the already established laws.

You're not having a good day are you mate?

Its sunny, dog is fed, step-son taken to work, dressed, showered, and unshaven, feeling real healthy today. No flashbacks or stress from anything today - so yes indeed a good day all around.

Sure just like the US Federal government is serious about keeping out illegals LOL!

the Federal government has not been concerned about working the issues along the border - they never have - that is way the current laws need to be enforced - not new ones on the books. Its amazing you still don't get it - all of your points except for the bounty are already on the books.

Care to explain two State governorss declaring emergencies to try and provide funding to protect the US border from foreign intrusion, something supposedly the Federal governments job?

Sure and in big letters to help you understand - the Federal Government has never enforced the current laws to the extend that the legislation states for the government to do, the Federal Government does not enforce the laws because it will cost votes in the next election

Care to explain anything upto and above 8 million illegal immigrants in the US?

Sure - an open and pourous border that has been open since the foundation of the United States. A set of immigrantion laws that have never been enforced by the Federal Government along the southern border because of a fear of losing the hispanic vote.

Translation: I have no proper counter-argument for this and so must bleat some emotionalist claptrap and then avoid it.

Someone needs to take their own advice on this point.

Its no different than police offering rewards for information leading to the capture of criminals, in fact thats EXACTLY what it is.

A big difference - for instance Texas is about 50% Hispanic - care to see how overloaded the system will become when over 5,000,000 people who are citizens are being arrested and released because of bad information.

This law would allow the freezing of bank accounts and all significant funds and assets procured brought about by the illegals activities. Pretty good incentive for local governments to get in on the 'dob in an illegal' campaign I'd say. An illegal can go from well off to broke in an instant and the local government reaps the rewards and the money goes back to the US people where it belongs. I doubt the current laws go so far into it as that, if so thoug I'd love to see it. Consider it an excuse for you to post some more links to try and impress people.

Again most illegals don't have bank accounts - because they are paid in cash and do not have social security numbers.

Nice try redleg, I'm afraid you'll have to do more than just post a link to the 'border patrol' website homepage and then go "so there!"

You might want to actually read the link - there is mention of internment camps and penalties

U.S. Customs and Border Protection has full authority to assess penalties and liquidated damages claims, seize merchandise for violation of CBP laws or those of other federal agencies that are enforced by CBP, remit forfeitures, mitigate penalties, decide petitions, and cancel claims. Seizures and Penalties include the establishment of National policies and procedures for processing fines, penalties, and forfeiture cases. The processing and disposition of these cases are strictly governed by laws, regulations, and mitigation guidelines designed to afford the claimant the greatest possible due process. The publications within this section provide the public with the information necessary for compliance.

Considering the US has up to 8 million illegals in the country I think its fairly safe to say that illegal immigration hasn't been pursued properly.

My point exactly - enforce the current laws

A system such as Australias where illegal immigrants and asylum seekers are placed in detention centres and not allowed out until being sent home (or in rare cases allowed in) works as a great disincentive, it also keeps them out of the community.

The United States has land borders with multiple points of entry. Comparing Australia's illegal or legal immigrantion policies with the United States is comparing Apples to Oranges - both are fruits - but they are different types of fruit.

Initially after my Solutions implementation probably many large detention centres would have to be set up to handle the glut, overtime though one would expect the number of inmates to decline as many were sent home, and the numbr of incoming illegals dropped.

Again shows a lack of knowledge of how open the United States border is, and how many people try to get into this country every year.

[yesdachi]

Lets get back on topic by stirring the pot. It seems like just about everyone is against illegal immigration and are ready to go as far as killing anyone that tries to set foot into the land of opportunity. Now, I don’t support illegal immigration and think there should be increased efforts to strengthen out boarders for a number of reasons but I cant blame anyone for wanting to come to the US, our prisons are better than many of their homes but I really think there should be a bigger penalty for employing illegal immigrants. Those business owners are the ones that are really messing things up.

What about the idea of making Mexico the 51st state? There wouldn’t be anymore illegal Mexican immigrants, and millions of our manufacturing jobs are already going there anyway. If so many people are breaking a law maybe that law shouldn’t be. Are you afraid of the economical repercussions? Do you think it would dilute our culture? What’s so bad about opening the doors again? Why not let out Latino brothers and sisters play on our snow covered mountains, amber waves of grain, etc.

I have my own reasons why I don’t think it would work out but what better way to stop people from doing something illegal than by making it legal.

[Redleg]

Lets get back on topic by stirring the pot. It seems like just about everyone is against illegal immigration and are ready to go as far as killing anyone that tries to set foot into the land of opportunity. Now, I don’t support illegal immigration and think there should be increased efforts to strengthen out boarders for a number of reasons but I cant blame anyone for wanting to come to the US, our prisons are better than many of their homes but I really think there should be a bigger penalty for employing illegal immigrants. Those business owners are the ones that are really messing things up.

Before any new laws are passed - the current ones need to be enforced to see if they are adequate to reduce the problem

What about the idea of making Mexico the 51st state? There wouldn’t be anymore illegal Mexican immigrants, and millions of our manufacturing jobs are already going there anyway. If so many people are breaking a law maybe that law shouldn’t be. Are you afraid of the economical repercussions? Do you think it would dilute our culture? What’s so bad about opening the doors again? Why not let out Latino brothers and sisters play on our snow covered mountains, amber waves of grain, etc.

That would both help and create additional problems. Last estimate I have seen on illegals is that close to 40% are from other nations besides Mexico. By making Mexico an additional state - we make it that much harder for the Coast Guard to police the seas of smugglers and criminals.

I have my own reasons why I don’t think it would work out but what better way to stop people from doing something illegal than by making it legal.

And that is the main reasoning why doing another amnesity program will not work - its been done at least twice in the last 25 years - and the problem still remains because the current laws are not adequately enforced.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Bmolson:

you did notice my disclaimer didn't you?

I did not say that Mexicans are all useless and unskilled. I did say that I'd observed U.S. construction companies using insufficiently skilled Mexican labourers, that were cheaper to hire than U.S. citizens, to perform skilled construction jobs. I also happen to know carpenters who have been employed to fix the messes made on some of these building sites: is that something that you see quite often when you use people with the appropriate skills for the job?

I was just amused that it probably cost the construction companies more in the long run.

Unsurprisingly there are also plenty of Mexicans who have the skills for the jobs they are doing and do a good job of it.

As for the legal statues of those Mexican labourers....I don't know but I met a plumber working on one of the sites who played a joke and yelled that the immigration officials were coming down: there were alot of people who started to run away.

Anyway, my post was primarily intended to point out some of the stupid practices that some employers of illegal/semi-legal immigrants do to save costs in the short term. Thanks for trying to make me sound like I was suggesting that Mexicans were all somehow sub-standard.