Shoot to kill

[Tribesman]

With the details and CCTV footage of the real sequence of events surrounding the British Police shooting dead the Brazilian suspected leaping fleeing suicide bomber at the tube station , has any of the posters who claimed at the time that the police were justified in their actions got any comments to make ?

[Papewaio]

Link please?

[Tribesman]

link

[bmolsson]

Geez..... A real scandal....

[Papewaio]

It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:

· was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;

· was unaware he was being followed;

· was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;

· never ran from the police;

· and did not jump the ticket barrier

So if this is correct and the rest of it, then it had a lot of spin put onto it to try and make it appear good rather then a monumental cock up and murder.

[Ja'chyra]

As nothing is substantiated anything we say, like the last time this was brought up, is unfounded and only hearsay.

[Adrian II]

As nothing is substantiated anything we say, like the last time this was brought up, is unfounded and only hearsay.

You mean to say that formal testimony by police officers and eyewitnesses is not 'substantial'? If so, then I wouldn't know what is substantial.

[Al Khalifah]

Oh dear, looks like Clarke's guilty before proven innocent tactics have come back to bite him in the ass.

[Papewaio]

As nothing is substantiated anything we say, like the last time this was brought up, is unfounded and only hearsay.

Well maybe it would have been a good idea for the government to apply the same logic?

[The Stranger]

disgusting how could you make such a huge mistake. nothing they said appeared true (atleast the important ones). and he was already mastered.

even if he run, wtf i would run too. the police were in casual, if a guy says to me halt police with a gun pointed at my head i would or run or back him to only take my money.

[Templar Knight]

BRITISH special forces soldiers took part in the operation that led to the shoot-to-kill death of an innocent Brazilian electrician with no connection to the London bombings, defence sources said last week.

Press photographs of members of the armed response team taken in the immediate aftermath of the killing show at least one man carrying a special forces weapon that is not issued to SO19, the Metropolitan police firearms unit.

The man, wearing civilian clothes with a blue cap marked “Police”, was carrying a specially modified Heckler & Koch G3K rifle with a shortened barrel and a butt from a PSG-1 sniper rifle fitted to it — a combination used by the SAS.

The soldiers who took part in the surveillance operation that led to de Menezes’s death included men from a secret undercover unit formed for operations in Northern Ireland, defence sources said.

Known then as 14 Int or the Det, it is reported to have formed the basis of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment, the newly created special forces unit stationed alongside the SAS at Hereford. The men include SAS soldiers serving on attachment and are part of a team of around 50 UK special forces that has operated in London since the July 7 bombings in which 56 people died.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...715880,00.html

[Adrian II]

I recall reading some stories at the time that suggested, on the basis of the killer's weapon and procedure, that he was not a policeman but an SAS guy let loose by the authorities in a fit of panic. If they really thought this young man was a suicide terrorist who was going to blow himself up through some sort of hidden mechanism in his clothes, then overpowering and detaining him would not have been enough to neutralise the risk. Deadly violence would have been necessary, and that is where the SAS man would fit in. I'm afraid this is the most plausible explanation for the incident. I don't see British police intentionally shooting up tourists, to be honest. Callous they may be, but they are not insane.

EDIT
Well there you go. As I was writing this post, Templar Knight (see above) was already filling in the dots. Diligent chappie, that Templar; pity he spams holes in peoples' socks.

[Templar Knight]

The SAS are trained to kill, how many times they shoot the guy is only academic - the fact is they were told of a 'threat' and they eliminated it. (If infact it was them) Even overpowering him would not be safe enough in the eyes of a Counter Terrorist.

[Redleg]

So if this is correct and the rest of it, then it had a lot of spin put onto it to try and make it appear good rather then a monumental cock up and murder.

Yep - looks like the police really did mess up - that was one of the reasons I stated we should wait for an investigation to be completed.

[Devastatin Dave]

Sickening...
Heads should roll for this...

[Ja'chyra]

You mean to say that formal testimony by police officers and eyewitnesses is not 'substantial'? If so, then I wouldn't know what is substantial.

Unsubstantiated as in

leaked documents

and

The documents, seemingly from the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the shooting

link to BBC

Call me naive but I'll wait for the outcome of the investigations before believing the press.

[econ21]

... has any of the posters who claimed at the time that the police were justified in their actions got any comments to make ?

Yeah, I wish I had kept my mouth shut. I believed the police account given at the time and am afraid my posts in retrospect are an example of the computer programmers maxim "garbage in, garbage out".

But I am not sure the lethal shot was fired by the SAS - I thought I heard the officer involved was take off firearm duties. (Here I may be lapsing back into believing the police account mode.)

It seems that somewhere along the line, the police assumed the dead man was a suicide bomber. Mistake number one. Even given that assumption, the reaction appears extreme. It sounds very much as if he could be seen not to have had a bomb and could have been - indeed was - apprehended physically without firing a shot. Mistake number two. Allowing false information to circulate in the aftermath of the shooting was a third mistake, although not so lethal.

Personally, I now think the shooting is a manifestation of a kind of hysteria or panic in London at the time. A friend who visited the city a few days after the second bombing said that it seemed very tense, with police cars racing around and everyone on edge. It kind of reminds me of that Spielberg flop, 1941, which portrayed an overwrought reaction in the US to Pearl Harbour.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

BRITISH special forces soldiers took part in the operation that led to the shoot-to-kill death of an innocent Brazilian electrician with no connection to the London bombings, defence sources said last week.

Press photographs of members of the armed response team taken in the immediate aftermath of the killing show at least one man carrying a special forces weapon that is not issued to SO19, the Metropolitan police firearms unit.

The man, wearing civilian clothes with a blue cap marked “Police”, was carrying a specially modified Heckler & Koch G3K rifle with a shortened barrel and a butt from a PSG-1 sniper rifle fitted to it — a combination used by the SAS.

The soldiers who took part in the surveillance operation that led to de Menezes’s death included men from a secret undercover unit formed for operations in Northern Ireland, defence sources said.

Known then as 14 Int or the Det, it is reported to have formed the basis of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment, the newly created special forces unit stationed alongside the SAS at Hereford. The men include SAS soldiers serving on attachment and are part of a team of around 50 UK special forces that has operated in London since the July 7 bombings in which 56 people died.

I didn't know Heckler Und Koch sold their rifles and military weapons to anyone besides Germany and Spain.

[Templar Knight]

I didn't know Heckler Und Koch sold their rifles and military weapons to anyone besides Germany and Spain.

any military and police unit can get them

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think civilians can order certain pistols too. I'm on their website now, but I'm not bothering with the fine print.

[Adrian II]

Personally, I now think the shooting is a manifestation of a kind of hysteria or panic in London at the time.

Appearance, appearances. You may very well be right, Simon, but...

For all we know, the procedure followed may have been completely adequate in case the young man had indeed been a suicide terrorist of the kind police were obviously expecting.

Only he wasn't.

Apart from that, it might well have been a highly 'correct' and perfectly cold-blooded police action of the kind we all expect and hope to see in case of an imminent terrorist threat. No panic, no mistakes. Lots of blood but no loose ends and no regrets as far as anyone could help it.

Only it wasn't.

Police mistakes are not crimes. Withholding information and obstructing the course of justice are, however, and if these hitherto unknown testimonies turn out to be 'substantial' heads will inevitably have to roll. That does not necessarily reflect on the competence or honesty of the policemen involved, or even of their direct superiors.

Call me prejudiced, but the idea suggested by some that British police on that fateful day decided to shoot themselves an 'Arab' just for the heck of it simply does not wash with me.

[Ser Clegane]

Call me prejudiced, but the idea suggested by some that British police on that fateful day decided to shoot themselves an 'Arab' just for the heck of it simply does not wash with me.

I don't think that a lot of people would go so far as to accuse the police of such low motives.

The problem is that - even they you have the best intentions - people just might majorly screw up in life or death situations.

If this really was the major screw-up as is currently appears to be, there will have to be consequences and I am pretty sure that the will be consequences - but these consequences are IMO necessary not primarily to punish people but to make sure that such tragedies will be avoided in the future.

It is very likely that the people who might have screwed up this operation already receive daily punishment from their conscience (which does not change the fact that "official" consequences will be necessary should the facts warrant it).

But in the end - at least IMHO - the people who ultimately have to bear the guilt for this are the ones who created the atmosphere of fear and insecurity in which such a tragedy was possible: the terrorists who made the conscious decision to kill innocent people.

[Adrian II]

I don't think that a lot of people would go so far as to accuse the police of such low motives.

More people than you think, I'm afraid. And even their motives aren't all low, I believe. It seems to be a natural reaction for people when faced by dramatic events, almost a reflex, to suppose that someone somewhere must be responsible for what has happened and that the motives of this genius must be evil. People don't suffer fallibility and contingency gladly.

[Tribesman]

Unsubstantiated as in
Unsubstatiated as in , the metropolitan police spokesman tonight on the news describing the leaked documents as accurate as far as the investigation of the evidence has progressed so far .
So what is patently clear so far , though of course we shall have to wait for the full findings , is that they lied and lied and then told some more lies to try to cover up their balls-up .


Known then as 14 Int or the Det,
Now that wouldn't be in any way linked to the thouroughly discredited bunch of renegande murdering ******* formally known as the F.R.U.?

[Templar Knight]

Known then as 14 Int or the Det,
Now that wouldn't be in any way linked to the thouroughly discredited bunch of renegande murdering ******* formally known as the F.R.U.?

what do you think...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If the allegations noted in the linked article are accurate, and it would seem unlikely that Brazilian authorities will allow any kind of obvious whitewashing, then it would appear that the authorities over-reacted.

I have little to say against the shooter once a decision was taken. Stopping a potential suicide bomber may well require ovewhelming and lethal force. The 12" range thing is a bit misleading here. It is written so as to connote cruelty or vindictiveness on the part of the authorities/shooter. If anything, it was likely a safety measure. The shooter was seeking a quick kill in crowded conditions where any miss was likely to result in a civilian casualty. Point blank was the rational choice for that.

Depending on the veracity of those allegations, the decision TO shoot will come under a good deal of scrutiny...as it should.

SF

[Tribesman]

what do you think...
You can guess what I think T.K. , I just wish that they could hurry up and get on with the inquiry into the activities of those murdering scum before too many more vital witnessess have unfortunate fatal accidents .

[BDC]

So I stand by my previous comment that British police have just proved again why they can't be trusted with guns.

[A.Saturnus]

So Mr de Menezes has done no mistake, except having a dark skin. He just entered a station and ran after a train. Then suddenly someone graps him and he´s shot 7 times in the head.
Sorry, that is not a police mistake, that is an assassination.

[Templar Knight]

what do you think...
You can guess what I think T.K. , I just wish that they could hurry up and get on with the inquiry into the activities of those murdering scum before too many more vital witnessess have unfortunate fatal accidents .

well, say anything that they don't like and you disappear.

Why do some witnesses to the shooting still claim he had a 'detonator' and had 'padded clothing'???!