Foot skirmishers

**Krautman** · 08-17-2005, 15:02

Especially within greek armys, who are slow to march and to react, i have found peltasts to be of great use, despite their bad stats. I usually keep them on both flanks, protecting the hoplites' vulnerable sides. As soon as the enemy infantry closes in, the peltasts can throw their spears right into the attackers' flanks, and once the attackers (often Macedons, in my case) are engagned with my hoplites, the peltasts can attack them into the rear, break them, and hunt down the routers. This way, the peltasts often cause much more casualties than the hoplites (sometimes a single unit took out up to 70-80 enemies). Any pure infantry army seems to have a hard time against a mixed hoplite-peltast army, it seems to me, at least if using AI tactics (=frontal assault).

Apart from their low price, i just love peltasts because they seem to be such a nice complement for the hoplites, and they look so stylishly greek. I can't wait to get the greek heavy peltasts. Do you have experience using them? I'd like to know how (if) you use foot skirmishers, if they are useful in a high-tech army and which types are the best ones (Velites?)

**Taurus** · 08-17-2005, 16:08

Hi and welcome to the .org Krautman

I find Peltasts to be very useful in Singleplayer and I use them in exactly the same way you stated above, because the AI (also as you said) does attack from the front.
Regarding your questions, my favourite skirmishers are the Armenian skirmishers I don't know why but they just are.
I used Heavy Peltasts a lot in my Greek campaign and they are very effective especially during sieges for multiple purposes, attacking the rear of a phalanx in a city street, barraging attacks from the walls, etc.
Overall if you like Skirmishers I suggest trying cavalry skirmishers aswell because they can perform exactly the same tasks but also move around quicker.

**Colovion** · 08-17-2005, 19:02

I never really was interested in Jav throwing units until two things happened.

/1 Running a unit of Spanish Jinetes behind the enemy lines in MTW and decimating an entire unit in a couple volleys

/2 Watching the battle of Raphia pre-RTW release and seeing some of them skewer some elephants from sooo much longer away than in MTW.

The foot skirmishers are very deadly if you have the time to position them properly and get a couple unhindered throws off. They're not something for everyone, but once you get a taste for them you rue the day when the enemy has more of them than you do.

**Orda Khan** · 08-17-2005, 19:15

Oh indeed, I agree entirely. Even a single unit ( I always hire Illyrians when I can ) can help no end, provided they are protected and allowed to unleash their weapons.
I used to love engaging the old STW armies and using protected Korean Skirmishers in the same way

.....Orda

**Deus ret.** · 08-17-2005, 23:38

Yep, those foot skirmishers are a nice addition to almost any army. Easy to maneuver, relatively easy to handle and easy to sacrifice....if needed. They also serve well against more nastier opponents such as elephants and chariots.
In contrast to MTW, they are actually useful beyond being cannon fodder.

In RTR, foot skirmishers have been credited with greater tactical weight. While morale and defense of most units was increased over vanilla RTW level, archers remained more or less the same; whereas peltasts have been beefed up to around 15 missile attack. Pretty deadly, especially when standing on a wall.

**bubbanator** · 08-18-2005, 01:22

Heavy peltasts or Illyirans are the way to go. I prefer Heavy Peltasts just becuase they can hold their own in melee for a while. However, I only really use them when I am fighting against phalanx units. 2 groups of Heavy Peltasts on the flanks and 2 in the center behind your line firing at the center unit works wonders. It constantly amazes me just how much damage a volly of spears does against a phalanx unit.

**Sam1626** · 08-18-2005, 22:39

Seeing as I'm not that good a Commander with missile units(they usually just get run down)I rarely use them,However they are brilliant for running ahead of an advancing army,when they are not too many enemy units about,to weaken units before the main shock troops hit home for easy routing.
I can see why people get hooked on them but give me archers/heavy infantry/light cavalry combination any day

**pezhetairoi** · 08-19-2005, 01:21

I don't really use javelin troops a lot, except possibly Illyrians, who have that good melee and defence. Reason being, I'm a really bad commander when it comes to javelins. So my jav troops must be able to defend themselves since they're almost sure to get run down unless they happen to be screening cavalry.

**The Stranger** · 08-19-2005, 12:21

i use heavy peltasts alot, they can defend themselves and when positioned behind a phalanx unit theyre quite helpfull but when playing the romans i dont need them.

**Krautman** · 08-19-2005, 15:38

Originally Posted by Deus ret.

In RTR, foot skirmishers have been credited with greater tactical weight. While morale and defense of most units was increased over vanilla RTW level, archers remained more or less the same; whereas peltasts have been beefed up to around 15 missile attack. Pretty deadly, especially when standing on a wall.

Sounds great, I'll have to get that mod. The peltasts' missile attack rating doesn't seem too high considering spear throwing, together with running, discus throwing etc. was in old Hellas probably what football is now in the USA- almost every kid did it regularly.

But, apart from the game, still i wonder about the battlefield effectiveness of javelins. That's all speculation though.
I guess the javelin's penetration power would be depending much more on the thrower's strength (as opposed to an arrow) and decrease quickly the further the range. Also, wouldn't an arrow penetrate easier due to the narrower tip?
I'm quite confident that, with a little practice, anyone could hit a man-sized target at 30m distance with a good bow, but doing the same with a javelin might be much harder. On the other hand, having some arrows sticking in your shield might not be a big problem, while a heavy, long javelin would seriously hamper your ability to defend yourself...
Also, were slings used in post-antiquity armies at all? I just can't imagine a sling to be an effective weapon.

**bubbanator** · 08-19-2005, 15:52

^^

The sheer mass of the javilins would give them the power to puncture all but the heaviest armour. This is why they are so effective against phalanxs.

So I only use them against phalanx factions. Or if I am the Romans I don't really use them at all unless I am in a tight spot and need some mercs. My mainline troops with pillas do just fine

**hoom** · 08-19-2005, 16:37

Running a unit of Spanish Jinetes behind the enemy lines in MTW and decimating an entire unit in a couple volleys

Every time I tried that my Jinetes just got scared & ran away without doing anything useful at all

Consequently I could never understand why everyone loves them...

Not much of a user of Peltasts & other javeliners generally.
They are a pain in the ass if you don't have any counter units & thats what Iphicrates' reforms were supposedly about; faster, lighter, counter-peltast hoplites.

I do like using the slingers though :)

High velocity, light projectiles beat heavy, slow ones. (1 unit faster is better than 1 unit heavier because the velocity is squared, this is why we use flechette guns now not spear launchers)
Slings can do the whip-crack sonic boom on the release & apparently there are Roman helmets with sling stone size holes through both sides...

**Colovion** · 08-19-2005, 18:54

Originally Posted by hoom

Every time I tried that my Jinetes just got scared & ran away without doing anything useful at all

Consequently I could never understand why everyone loves them...

I only learned how to use them after I learned to use HA's properly.

Without the skirmish mode on.

**Dark_Magician** · 08-19-2005, 20:24

Originally Posted by bubbanator

It constantly amazes me just how much damage a volly of spears does against a phalanx unit.

Originally Posted by krautman

On the other hand, having some arrows sticking in your shield might not be a big problem, while a heavy, long javelin would seriously hamper your ability to defend yourself....

I remember Caesar also mentioned javelins' usefulness in his book on Gallish Wars. However he meant -exactly like Krautman said - that throwing javelins into charging unit with shields would render them to considerable extent shieldless as long javelins would stick in the shileds, making them unusable. This rather than direct kills what made them so useful.