Duh! "Intelligent Falling"!!!

[Redleg]

Oooooook Redleg, but somebody already asked the question..."And before God?"...Is just human nature, as it's ceating "ideal beings" that lives in all things or in a plane where you can't see it or go to, so you can justify moral points of view, power over the earth and have the tools to say what is heaven and how to get to it.

LOL - your assuming that I don't know how religion comes about. Knowledge does not mean one does not have to believe.

If you still want to believe in the idea of GOD then do so, but be advised to not do such question that don't have answer. Sometime perhaps you will understand that the science have discovered that time is just another dimension (like longitude) so perhaps some day the scientists will find the answer to that question, just to discover that they are in an endless road again or to discover that before or after not always existed, that there was sometime in the live of universe when time didn't existed...

Again someone missed the [sarcasm on] [sarcasm off] buttons. But I will say this - is it not hypocritical to attack someone who believes in God for not being able to provide proof. When the theory of the Big Bang as purposed by scientists have no proof to how or why it happened. Only that it was the most likely cause. That is the reason why the on/off switch of sarcasm was clearly placed in the text.

Religion means different things for different people. However to assume because of a satire that Christianity will cause you to believe in absolute Tripe is ridiculous. The whole premise of his initial post is that he believed The Onion to be a legimate news report of a true event. His whole postion is hypocritical for that fact.

[Soulforged]

LOL - your assuming that I don't know how religion comes about. Knowledge does not mean one does not have to believe.

Again someone missed the [sarcasm on] [sarcasm off] buttons. But I will say this - is it not hypocritical to attack someone who believes in God for not being able to provide proof. When the theory of the Big Bang as purposed by scientists have no proof to how or why it happened. Only that it was the most likely cause. That is the reason why the on/off switch of sarcasm was clearly placed in the text.

Religion means different things for different people. However to assume because of a satire that Christianity will cause you to believe in absolute Tripe is ridiculous.

It seems that i've a serious problems with your sarcasm...
The problem with explaning to someone that God's doesn't EXIST, that's just an idea, is turning more and more complicated.
Again, going as far as i can tell ok:
- I don't hate religious people, all my family is pretty religious, and i respect them, because i respect everybody (well maybe not yankees . But it's very simple to understand it all. When the human first looked at the stars, probably he believed it was for eating, but he realized that he cannot touch it so he started to saving the image on his memory. Then he imagined a story of beings looking to him in the sky and he draw pictures of it. Later he told this to his partners and planned to tell this to everyone. Telling this to everyone on the society he demonstrated that he could show the creators of the universe to everyone, and so he did, everyone believed it, and praised it, and so praised the man who discovered it. Thus born religion. With the time religion was used to explain everything, being a good influence to education and to the eventual appearing of philosophy and later of science. But when a new true explanation, based on true knowledge and facts, was born to replace the old given by religion, many times this fhought and many times it adapted to the "new world". Some guy (i would not give names because this is a hypothetical parallel to known history) discovered that One god would be invencible in adaptation matters, because, in difference of many gods and deities, you could move him behind everything, saying that he was the creator, and the good, and all that he wasn't was evil, thus creating a new morality almost implacable that lasted for centuries and costed many lives and larger knowledge. So the things came back to what they were. People became the "channels" of God's will on earth, some were just named by the institutions, others showed "evidence", signs that God touched them, some made miracles. In little time society begun to fear and respect this "facts" and praised to God in this mans, calling them saints, calling them saviors. Thus religion gained an almost impenetrable position of power in earth society governing from the heavens. All misterious things that human could not explain by science (or that they don't believe that was science deeds) were "explained" by religion (tough technically talking the word explanation can be given to religion in any way). But in the actual world almost all fenomenums that were before "explained" by religion are explained by science, and all people (or almost all) believe that the Earth turns arround the Sun (if they don't belive it, well it will turn anyway...). There're things that science cannot explain so people sticks to the metaphysical idea (like all ideas) of God, like death and what comes after it. To finish my little story i will tell this: i know as many scientists (i'm not one, but i only "know", i don't have "faith") that death is not inevitable and that all things in universe have an actual explanation...My point is that this kind of institutions and organizations that mocks on science and have actual power on earthly issues should not exists. And i ask you a question: Let's suppose that in some time in history science finds the true explanation to the Big Bang, or another beggining and what originated it. What will you do? Perhaps believe that the God is behind that and in everyplace. Ok, but let's say that science finds the explanation for EVERYTHING...Then where will you place God in the "existence" of Universe? I'm curious if, when that happens, suddenly there's no more God...(but i wouldn't be surprised). All will come back to the first time that the man viewed the stars and believe it was to eat...

"Uriel... I agree with you. You are one of the enlightened few who can appreciate that the Bible is not to be taken literally and has lost some integrity in the translation."

I don't think that any body takes the bible literally, just that Christians take some parts of it as literal. The Bible is just like another fictional book partially based on true facts (there's a lot of true facts in the Bible, but this doesn't matter to the faith), those true facts affects only reality not faith or ideality, while the invented facts, like "Jesus makes the water turn into wine", affects perception and ideality. You are intitled to believe that Jesus actually did that, thus proving that he was the son of God (tough othes religions state the same of other "mans", it's a paradox don't?), but the strange thing is that Jesus acts like a "nuts" all the time, like he was high. There's a chapter of "Boston Public" when some guy get's a blow on the head and obviouly goes wacko and starts to act like Jesus, i don't have anything against "different" people, but the fact is that Jesus acted like one, or at least like a fanatic. How can you prove that Jesus did those miracles? Well you can't, is like God itself (or himself?), is like "magic", you just believe in it. I respect some of the believes of Jesus, but that's all, there's nothing that makes Jesus more than a visionary man or a crazy profet, or any other "saint". (Notice that i'm not talking about God himself, that's above, so for starters the most simple explanation is "God doesn't exists, so Jesus for instance is not son of God"). And that's the principal problem with religious people, they believe in a superior being that rules all (then they have no problem to be ruled), and even in a man that rules all.
Anyway this is going to far. Creationism isn't an explanation, is a piece of the past ways in the modern society, it doesn't have any facts that support it and there will never be, unless you actually believe that there's a physical "heaven" and a material "God". I prefer to look for truth, and to be just denpendent of other mans. If you always will need a man to praise for and knee and treat him like the origin of all "good" and the salvation of man then do it, but for humanity's sake don't support creationism and don't buy the Bible, download it from the net in any case. Some people laugh when they see a "wacko" or a guy that believes he does magic and forms a club of mages (with all the reason, but they should help him, not just laugh), but is curious why they don't laugh at their own religion...My opinion is that everybody should look with interest to this obsolete belief and maybe laugh, but keep it like all fantastic stories.

If nobody wanted to read the post i will ask the question again: Let's suppose that in some time in history science finds the true explanation to the Big Bang, or another beggining and what originated it. What will you do? Perhaps believe that the God is behind that and in everyplace. Ok, but let's say that science finds the explanation for EVERYTHING...Then where will you place God in the "existence" of Universe? I'm curious if, when that happens, suddenly there's no more God...(but i wouldn't be surprised). All will come back to the first time that the man viewed the stars and believe it was to eat...

[Redleg]

It seems that i've a serious problems with your sarcasm...
The problem with explaning to someone that God's doesn't EXIST, that's just an idea, is turning more and more complicated.

That is the problem with a belief system.

Again, going as far as i can tell ok:
- I don't hate religious people, all my family is pretty religious, and i respect them, because i respect everybody (well maybe not yankees . But it's very simple to understand it all. When the human first looked at the stars, probably he believed it was for eating, but he realized that he cannot touch it so he started to saving the image on his memory. Then he imagined a story of beings looking to him in the sky and he draw pictures of it. Later he told this to his partners and planned to tell this to everyone. Telling this to everyone on the society he demonstrated that he could show the creators of the universe to everyone, and so he did, everyone believed it, and praised it, and so praised the man who discovered it. Thus born religion.

Oh I understand that very well - The concept of a belief system is that it provides you comfort and hope when faced with situations that seem overwhelming to the individual.

With the time religion was used to explain everything, being a good influence to education and to the eventual appearing of philosophy and later of science. But when a new true explanation, based on true knowledge and facts, was born to replace the old given by religion, many times this fhought and many times it adapted to the "new world". Some guy (i would not give names because this is a hypothetical parallel to known history) discovered that One god would be invencible in adaptation matters, because, in difference of many gods and deities, you could move him behind everything, saying that he was the creator, and the good, and all that he wasn't was evil, thus creating a new morality almost implacable that lasted for centuries and costed many lives and larger knowledge. So the things came back to what they were. People became the "channels" of God's will on earth, some were just named by the institutions, others showed "evidence", signs that God touched them, some made miracles.

Again none of this disproves or proves religion.

Sorry to break down your writing into bite size peices - but I am honestly trying to find the natural break point so that I can understand what you are saying.

In little time society begun to fear and respect this "facts" and praised to God in this mans, calling them saints, calling them saviors. Thus religion gained an almost impenetrable position of power in earth society governing from the heavens. All misterious things that human could not explain by science (or that they don't believe that was science deeds) were "explained" by religion (tough technically talking the word explanation can be given to religion in any way). But in the actual world almost all fenomenums that were before "explained" by religion are explained by science, and all people (or almost all) believe that the Earth turns arround the Sun (if they don't belive it, well it will turn anyway...).

This is all true - and even as a believer in God - I understand that certain religous truthes are now outdated because science has shown it to be true by natural law.

There're things that science cannot explain so people sticks to the metaphysical idea (like all ideas) of God, like death and what comes after it.

Hence the problem - those who believe in God use for the foundation of their belief (well some of us anyway). While the very nature of this those who say that God does not exist can not prove his non-existance. But in the same sense - we who believe in God can not prove his existance to those who dis-believe either.

To finish my little story i will tell this: i know as many scientists (i'm not one, but i only "know", i don't have "faith") that death is not inevitable and that all things in universe have an actual explanation...My point is that this kind of institutions and organizations that mocks on science and have actual power on earthly issues should not exists.

Yes the Religous Organizations should not mock science - I agree with that statement.

And i ask you a question: Let's suppose that in some time in history science finds the true explanation to the Big Bang, or another beggining and what originated it. What will you do?

Well frankly we know that is not going to happen. But if it does - then those that believe some will have a loss of faith and lose all meaning in their lives - or like I image I will - understand that the belief in God has allowed me to think that I have a higher purpose in life other then just worrying about myself. No harm and no foul to my conscience or my being - since I don't let religion overwelm by understanding what I must do in regards to society and human laws.

Perhaps believe that the God is behind that and in everyplace. Ok, but let's say that science finds the explanation for EVERYTHING...Then where will you place God in the "existence" of Universe? I'm curious if, when that happens, suddenly there's no more God...(but i wouldn't be surprised). All will come back to the first time that the man viewed the stars and believe it was to eat...

Well again - since man is always questing for answers - I doubt very seriously that science finds the explanation for Everything. Hell science doesn't even understand how the Human Brain functions completely yet.

"Uriel... I agree with you. You are one of the enlightened few who can appreciate that the Bible is not to be taken literally and has lost some integrity in the translation."


I don't think that any body takes the bible literally, just that Christians take some parts of it as literal. The Bible is just like another fictional book partially based on true facts (there's a lot of true facts in the Bible, but this doesn't matter to the faith), those true facts affects only reality not faith or ideality, while the invented facts, like "Jesus makes the water turn into wine", affects perception and ideality. You are intitled to believe that Jesus actually did that, thus proving that he was the son of God (tough othes religions state the same of other "mans", it's a paradox don't?), but the strange thing is that Jesus acts like a "nuts" all the time, like he was high. There's a chapter of "Boston Public" when some guy get's a blow on the head and obviouly goes wacko and starts to act like Jesus, i don't have anything against "different" people, but the fact is that Jesus acted like one, or at least like a fanatic. How can you prove that Jesus did those miracles? Well you can't, is like God itself (or himself?), is like "magic", you just believe in it. I respect some of the believes of Jesus, but that's all, there's nothing that makes Jesus more than a visionary man or a crazy profet, or any other "saint". (Notice that i'm not talking about God himself, that's above, so for starters the most simple explanation is "God doesn't exists, so Jesus for instance is not son of God"). And that's the principal problem with religious people, they believe in a superior being that rules all (then they have no problem to be ruled), and even in a man that rules all.

Actually the last part is slightly incorrect - God rules heaven and earth but has granted man free will.

Anyway this is going to far. Creationism isn't an explanation, is a piece of the past ways in the modern society, it doesn't have any facts that support it and there will never be, unless you actually believe that there's a physical "heaven" and a material "God". I prefer to look for truth, and to be just denpendent of other mans. If you always will need a man to praise for and knee and treat him like the origin of all "good" and the salvation of man then do it, but for humanity's sake don't support creationism and don't buy the Bible, download it from the net in any case. Some people laugh when they see a "wacko" or a guy that believes he does magic and forms a club of mages (with all the reason, but they should help him, not just laugh), but is curious why they don't laugh at their own religion...My opinion is that everybody should look with interest to this obsolete belief and maybe laugh, but keep it like all fantastic stories.

You were making some sense until this last paragraph. Now all I see is someone who wants to critize those who are religous as being "wacko's" or obsolete. So now your attempting to force me into your belief system. Something that I as a Christian have not done to you.

If nobody wanted to read the post i will ask the question again: Let's suppose that in some time in history science finds the true explanation to the Big Bang, or another beggining and what originated it. What will you do? Perhaps believe that the God is behind that and in everyplace. Ok, but let's say that science finds the explanation for EVERYTHING...Then where will you place God in the "existence" of Universe? I'm curious if, when that happens, suddenly there's no more God...(but i wouldn't be surprised). All will come back to the first time that the man viewed the stars and believe it was to eat...

I read it all - and the answer is in the post. Since you asked - I will also ask you two questions, what will you do when science finds they can not discover the answer to how the Big Bang happened? What will you do when faced with a major crisis in your life - and you have absolutely no human being to look to for comfort? (The old saying there are no athiests in foxholes).

[Soulforged]

I didn't mean to treat any religious people as "wacko" but then you're treating the wackos with disrespect. I only called Jesus a "guy who acted like a wacko or a fanatic". In any case, sorry if i hurt your feelings...and for the last paragraph, well i said it's my opinion, but you can't deny that this story is similar to the "Nibelungenlied", so you can't treat like wackos those that believe that Siegfried killed a dragon, bathed in it's blood and became immortal.
And God granted free will (i've listened to that since i was a child so don't, i don't missed it), but then he sends a son who tells (following the Bible):"Those who live by me will be saved, and those who only live for themselves will be lost" (or something like that, since i don't remember the exact part of the Bible). That was Jesus speaking, so you only find salvation if you follow that moral, and that moral only, again is a way to get power, but it's just to demonstrate that the Bible contradicts itself in many places because of the differences on ages and the interpretation made of it also contradict, many times, as many teachers of my found and didn't have an answer.
Well now to your questions (i like this really ):
To the question about the Big Bang: First i don't know if this teory is right, but as the teory given by Newton it gives practical results and explanation based on facts. The point is that i believe that in teory science can find the answer to every natural fenomenum, but i don't need that to happen to prove my point. The problem is that if that happens then the thing that survived for all that time "the existence of God" will fall, and a superior being that was the creator of everything, the One, will be suddenly what it's, nothing. That's my point and you comfirmed it with your next question, that God's "exists" as long as we've answers then it suddenly disappears...
Your second question is pretty philosophical and a very good one (one that has been asked to me many times), i would say this: if that happens, then i will find myself in a irrational state (an probably i'll try to do anything to save myself even kill, or everything to be with one even kill myself) wich i'll not be surprised if it leads me to believe in a higher being. But in a rational state i would never do that.

[Redleg]

I didn't mean to treat any religious people as "wacko" but then you're treating the wackos with disrespect.

considering my wife is bi-polar and so is my step-son I doubt very seriously that I treat such people with disrepect.

I only called Jesus a "guy who acted like a wacko or a fanatic". In any case, sorry if i hurt your feelings...and for the last paragraph, well i said it's my opinion, but you can't deny that this story is similar to the "Nibelungenlied", so you can't treat like wackos those that believe that Siegfried killed a dragon, bathed in it's blood and became immortal.

Like I said - I doubt very seriousily that I treat them as wacko's - just like I treat those that follow Islam with respect.

And God granted free will (i've listened to that since i was a child so don't, i don't missed it), but then he sends a son who tells (following the Bible):"Those who live by me will be saved, and those who only live for themselves will be lost" (or something like that, since i don't remember the exact part of the Bible). That was Jesus speaking, so you only find salvation if you follow that moral, and that moral only, again is a way to get power, but it's just to demonstrate that the Bible contradicts itself in many places because of the differences on ages and the interpretation made of it also contradict, many times, as many teachers of my found and didn't have an answer.

Its really rather simple - you either believe or you don't believe that Jesus is the savior - many people don't believe. Which is fine - I chose to believe in God and that Jesus Christ is my savior and that he died for my sins.

Well now to your questions (i like this really ):
To the question about the Big Bang: First i don't know if this teory is right, but as the teory given by Newton it gives practical results and explanation based on facts. The point is that i believe that in teory science can find the answer to every natural fenomenum, but i don't need that to happen to prove my point.

Which is the same dilemnia and situation with someone that believes in God. The Big Bang theory supports Genesis because of the theory.

The problem is that if that happens then the thing that survived for all that time "the existence of God" will fall, and a superior being that was the creator of everything, the One, will be suddenly what it's, nothing. That's my point and you comfirmed it with your next question, that God's "exists" as long as we've answers then it suddenly disappears...

Then you misunderstood my point on that. The belief in God does me absolutely no harm - and futhermore does you absolutely no harm. My statement once again was understand that the belief in God has allowed me to think that I have a higher purpose in life other then just worrying about myself

Your second question is pretty philosophical and a very good one (one that has been asked to me many times), i would say this: if that happens, then i will find myself in a irrational state (an probably i'll try to do anything to save myself even kill, or everything to be with one even kill myself) wich i'll not be surprised if it leads me to believe in a higher being. But in a rational state i would never do that.

Exactly my point - the difference is I chose to belief in God and a higher purpose even in a normal state of affairs. I have faced enough stressful situations in my life, Combat in a foreign land, the Troubled birth of my son who was born 7 weeks pre-mature (and is thankfully 100% normal with only one minor joint issue from the pre-mature birth.), the feeling that I had to get home one night while at work - where I found my wife attempting to commit suicide because of her bi-polar state. If I had of left work at my normall scheduled time - I would of found my wife dead - not in the state that I found her in. Several other minor things that leave me convinced that if God does exists. If this existance is only in my mind and allows me to face life in a manner in which I can function without subcoming (SP) to the pressures of life - what is the harm to the world or myself?

Absolutely none that I can see.

[Soulforged]

Ok you've your belief i've mine. But you've to accept that institucionalized religions leads to problems, especially if it mixes with politics, and that's the harm that i'm worried about. The harm that you do or you don't do to yourself is your problem, and i know that religion can give you hope, in fact i never said anything against it, but i believe in having true knowledge and hope in humanity. And if i pass throught all that you have passed then perhaps i will believe in that idea again (but i doubt it), but that doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exists...

[Redleg]

Ok you've your belief i've mine. But you've to accept that institucionalized religions leads to problems, especially if it mixes with politics, and that's the harm that i'm worried about. The harm that you do or you don't do to yourself is your problem, and i know that religion can give you hope, in fact i never said anything against it, but i believe in having true knowledge and hope in humanity. And if i pass throught all that you have passed then perhaps i will believe in that idea again (but i doubt it), but that doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exists...

Can you prove that he does not exist?