Phalanxes too weak?

[King Henry V]

But it's just strange when a phalanx has a unit of cavalry behind it and they take no notice of it whatsoever. You just wnat to shout out "he's behind you!".

[nameless]

But it's just strange when a phalanx has a unit of cavalry behind it and they take no notice of it whatsoever. You just wnat to shout out "he's behind you!".

The major problem with the Phalanx is its inflexibility. Your talking about 100(dunno the actual number) guys with 15ft spears in close formation having to straighten up and pivot to the incoming danger which is incredibly difficult to do as they have to do it all at the same time and even so then they'll just expose another flank.

It's basically a massacre if someone smashes into its flanks because technically they can't defend it without exposing another flank.

[Krautman]

Quite possibly their (the phalanx members') perception is seriously hampered when involved in a melee battle. You know, they can't use their camera rotation/zoom button like us! They probably just wouldn't notice a cavalry charge from behind and be even more surprised, which might cause panic.

[King Henry V]

The major problem with the Phalanx is its inflexibility. Your talking about 100(dunno the actual number) guys with 15ft spears in close formation having to straighten up and pivot to the incoming danger which is incredibly difficult to do as they have to do it all at the same time and even so then they'll just expose another flank.

It's basically a massacre if someone smashes into its flanks because technically they can't defend it without exposing another flank.

I'm not saying the whole phalanx should turn round, just the rear most ranks to face the threat.

[nameless]

I'm not saying the whole phalanx should turn round, just the rear most ranks to face the threat.

The ENEMIES OF ROME by Philip Matyszak has a picture of a phalanx in here which I have, it notes a couple times that the long pikes and close formation made it impossible for the men to manoeuvre. And the Roman cohorts smashed the left wing of Philips army and broke it in which allowed them to fall on their flanks and rears.

As for having individual men in the unit to rotate themselves to face a threat I'm not a contemporary military expert enough to answer that effectively, hopefully someone else here can. But as said before and time again, the Cohorts strength was its flexiblity, the phalanx had none.

BTW I've yet to see a phalanx group rout in the event of a volley of pila, though that was ONLY when 3-4 cohorts threw their pillas at one phalanx group.

[Joe_Nvidio828]

uhhh yea they r weak. when a cav unit charges ur spears and the lead horse carves a line through ur center pushing ur guys back. gay.

[Sjakihata]

I've seen a phalanx rout due to pila volleys. Had 3 hastatii throwing at one low tech phalanx - and they ran, like a whipped dog!

[econ21]

Phalanxes seem about right in RTR v6.0 (although I somewhat preferred the more powerful ones in v5.4). They will overcome Roman heavy infantry if left long enough, head to head, but will fall if subject to lots of javelin fire and/or being pinned then flanked. It's fun charging heavy cavalry into the rear of a withdrawing phalanx. Sometimes - if they are wavering - you'll get lucky and they'll break, but usually, they take the impact, then turn around and proceed to massacre your expensive cavalry. Generally not recommended. I'd never try a head-on cavalry charge (although the AI does and does not live to regret it). I agree phalanxes seem flawed against cav in vanilla (although CA has promised to correct this for BI).

I've noticed something like the behaviour the original poster complained about with non-phalanx formations. On a wall, a defender may turn to face one attacker and leave it's rear exposed to another attacker. The rear defending soldiers don't always seem to face their attackers in the way that commonsense would dictate. I suspect that this is deliberate programming by CA to make sure there is an advantage to flanking and to avoid the game degenerating into an RTS style mass scrummage. Think of it - like the small unit sizes - as a modelling abstraction rather than a literal representation and you might find it inoffensive.

[Bartix]

I'm not saying the whole phalanx should turn round, just the rear most ranks to face the threat.

They have pointy things stuck in formation!
Takes some micro managing if fighting on more sides.
Some times press stop/halt, some times remove from phalanx formation better if facing more units.
Turning formation with ., keys some times is good idea if you see charge coming.
But when charge hits from behind of phalanx, it shall be very nasty for phalangites.

[nameless]

but usually, they take the impact, then turn around and proceed to massacre your expensive cavalry.

That's true but at that point the cavalry is too close and the phalanx would switch to their weaker swords and usually when I have a cavalry unit do this the Phalanx would already be fighting a cohort or something else so it makes things worse for the Phalanx to turn around. Cavalry has to be done right as in the texts most battles were won due to the Cavalry which mainly just smashed the enemy's rear and flanks and collapse it.

[econ21]

usually when I have a cavalry unit do this the Phalanx would already be fighting a cohort or something else so it makes things worse for the Phalanx to turn around.

Yes, pinning is the trick. I think that's related to the point I made about units seeming to have to face a certain direction and not fully adapt to enemies at both sides.

But the situation I was referring to was when the AI realises early on in a battle that it is outgunned and tries to high tail it off the map. Sometimes I can't resist trying to catch them with my cavalry. It's usually a costly decision (although in RTR 5.4, it worked like a dream with companions).

Cavalry has to be done right as in the texts most battles were won due to the Cavalry which mainly just smashed the enemy's rear and flanks and collapse it.

That's interesting - if it is true, then it makes me feel better about the historical accuracy of RTW. Pinning with infantry and charging into the rear with cav is a killer - perhaps the killer - SP tactic in TW games.

[Deus ret.]

But the situation I was referring to was when the AI realises early on in a battle that it is outgunned and tries to high tail it off the map. Sometimes I can't resist trying to catch them with my cavalry. It's usually a costly decision.

I know what you mean, although when I try this it's usually the infantry which starts routing. Maybe this is due to the charge bug but heavy cav charging in the back of a retreating phalanx is quite reliable in my experience. If you want to seal their rout, use two units...and pray they don't turn around and re-group right before the charge hits them. In RTW phalanx units are remarkably quick in turning on and off phalanx formation, which makes them rather strong and not nearly as unmaneuverable as they must have been in reality.

As nameless has stated, phalanxes tend to switch to swords anyway once they are charged in their flanks/rear and subsequently pose not much of a threat even if they won't rout.

At least in RTR 6.0, there is an exception: Never ever use the bodyguard of an average family member to chase retreating units. Since their size has been halved roughly, even plain javelinmen will easily finish off the unit after its charge has burned out. To achieve good results (=the desired rout) one has to use full-strength units.

[Puzz3D]

Cavalry has to be done right as in the texts most battles were won due to the Cavalry which mainly just smashed the enemy's rear and flanks and collapse it.

Flanking with infantry or cavalry was decisive against a phalanx battleline in the battles I've read about. Later generations forgot the lessons of Alexander which was to use combined arms and protect the flanks of the phalanx with other kinds of troops. I think this is the case in RTW, but, given the weakness of the phalanx flanks, it should be better to the front. Historically, it was very good to the front and could fight for a long time, and I don't think that capability is reflected properly in RTW.

[econ21]

Historically, it was very good to the front and could fight for a long time, and I don't think that capability is reflected properly in RTW.

Perhaps that weakness is due to phalanx/cavalry charge interactions that CA has said it will patch for BI?

Against, infantry, the frontal phalanx seems pretty strong in RTW. I recall in a PBM German, my spear warbands could wipe out whole stacks of AI hastati with virtually no loss just by marching through them.





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