Countdown to Open Beta - Pahlava

[Moros]

didn't turkic peoples overrun that area after the arabs? maybe they didn't really populate it though..

I don't know about that but a turc ran over my cousin once

[Steppe Merc]

didn't turkic peoples overrun that area after the arabs? maybe they didn't really populate it though..

Well there was the Gok "Blue" Turks, that then divided into the Eastern and Western Turkish Khagans who were at war often with the Sassanians, and some probably mixed with Iranian peoples in that area. Then the Arab invasions happened, and the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes. Many converted to Islam, though some resisted. In fact, Persians (Iranians), Turks and Arabs were the three main Islamic people. They all sort of helped form what Islam was about, militarily and culturally.

And I think that there is Turkish blood in many modern peoples, from Asia Minor to Asia and the Middle East. Again, I don't know much about the people in that area after the Middle Ages.
And a main part of that is that I'm not sure how much each nation makes up of ancient Iran, so I'm not sure which of today's nations that Turks invaded, etc.

edit: And Angadil's right, many spread out, and then came back in, though some stayed in the area I think.

[TheTank]

Great update EB,

Lots of units to watch + interesting information but i prefer the Sauromatae..


Spongly

Tacitus indeed says that the Germans are known for their red hair, rather than blonde, which the Romans considered more a feature of the Celts and various other people.

Some germanic tribes painted their hair red but where not naturarlly so.
Gauls and Britons (don't know about the Geals) often bleeched their hair with lime or some other substance maybe this is the reason that Romans imagined that gauls where all fairhaired...

Ranika,

Of Aryans, Hitler's assertations were just wrong, as NeonGod said; the Aryan race exists, but they aren't 'Germans'; his definition of Aryans would have lent itself more to Gauls (and southern 'Gallic' Britons, Tylisians and Galatians that stemmed from them) than it would Germanic tribes.

Please explain ranika,
Where the aryans a group of people that invaded India and Iran a very long time ago?!
I don't think about the Celts if I hear the word aryans...

[Steppe Merc]

Tank the Aryans themselves were Iranians (Scythians, Sakaes, Sarmatians, Persians, Parthians, etc.). It's two words for the same thing.
However, they probably had relatives amongst the Celtic people.

[Zero1]

I was under the impression that the Indo-Iranians were closer in relation to the Germanic peoples then the Celts, was I mistaken?

[Aenlic]

It depends upon which migration model is followed, and where and when one places the Urheimat for the Indo-European language.

If the Kurgan hypothesis is followed than the Urheimat is placed on the northern shore of the Black Sea with the Yamna culture. The Iranian and Indo-Aryan come from the Pontic steppes and the Yamna culture then the Adronovo culture and then circle around the north Caspian and back down and around to the south and west. This would make Indo-Aryan and Iranian more closely related to pre-proto-Germanic, since the pre-proto-Celtic peoples like the pre-Unetice culture had already moved farther west, splitting off west from the Yamna culture.

If the much earlier Neolithic revolution, or proto-Hittite, hypothesis is followed then the Urheimat is placed around Lake Urmia, and then spread north to form the Yamna and Maykop kurgan cultures and south, west and east to form proto-Hittite cultures. This allows for the possibility that the pre-proto-Celtic cultures came from a spread west and northwest, while the pre-proto-Germanic spread from the Yamna culture north and then west.

A third possibility is placing the Urheimat for Indo-European even earlier around shores of the pre-deluge Black Sea, particularly on the land that became the Sea of Azov. This would then start major expansion with the 5500 BCE deluge which created the current and much larger sea, spreading and splitting the culture west and northwest to form the pre-proto-Celtics, south and southeast to form the pre-proto-Hittites and Iranian/Indo-Aryan and north and northeast to form the kurgan cultures and the pre-proto-Germanic and later the pre-proto-Baltic.

And don't forget the Tarim mummies from the Tarim basin. Caucasoid mummies in the Xinjiang-Uyghur region from around 2000 BCE. They had fair, often red hair, had clothing which used techniques and wool similar to western European cultures and other things which make them non-Asian. They could possible be proto-Tocharian in origin, which would make them pre-proto-Iranian/Indo-Aryan; but their clothing suggests a more northern descent, more akin to pre-proto-Baltic-Slavic.

[Ranika]

Some germanic tribes painted their hair red but where not naturarlly so.
Gauls and Britons (don't know about the Geals) often bleeched their hair with lime or some other substance maybe this is the reason that Romans imagined that gauls where all fairhaired...

I'l just focus on this part, since the Celtic part about Aryans seems answered. This is a poor conception; they're Gaels, not Geals, for one (sorry, that's not my point, but I hate that misspelling). Only Cisalpine Gauls bleached their hair, and only southern Britons. Others didn't. Midland Britons had long dark hair, but they weren't called Celts (considering them Celts emerged in the late 1800s; before that, the iron age Britons were just called Britons, except the southerners, who were, and technically are still, considered Gauls/Gallic-Britons). Transalpine Gauls wore their hair long, and many many of them had blonde hair. This wasn't from bleaching at all; many continental Celts were blonde. For example, in Fayuum, Egypt (where many, many Galatian Celts settled as mercenaries for the Ptolemies), the people are still blonde haired, fair-skinned, and blue eyed. Other hair colors existed among Celts (obviously), but there were huge numbers of them with blonde hair and blue eyes; they would fit the description of 'Aryans' quite well, and they were very likely related to groups like the Skythians.

Of Germans with red hair, it's known from the examining of DNA evidence, that many early Germans did have red hair, it wasn't all dyes, though some tribes did dye their hair.

Of Gaels, Gaelic hair colors varied a bit widely because of the mixture of settlers (Galaecians from Iberia, Gauls, Belgae, various Britons) and the natives of the island. Red hair existed, but was made more prominent by vikings (though pre-viking red haired Gaels existed, mainly in the regions where Belgae had settled); fair brown hair seemed most common at the time, probably because all involved groups likely had this hair color to some extent, but also present was black and dark brown hair in the southwest, where Iberians had settled. However, almost all were very fair-skinned.

[TheTank]

Ranika,

they're Gaels, not Geals, for one (sorry, that's not my point, but I hate that misspelling)

My humble apologies for the error.
It was a typo....

[jurchen fury]

Well there was the Gok "Blue" Turks, that then divided into the Eastern and Western Turkish Khagans who were at war often with the Sassanians, and some probably mixed with Iranian peoples in that area. Then the Arab invasions happened, and the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes.

No, the Eastern Kok Turuk (known in Chinese sources as the Eastern Tujue) Kaganate based in the Orkhon valley in Mongolia was conquered by the leading Tang generals Li Jing and Li Shiji during 629-630 CE and was part of the Tang empire for about 50 years. The 8th-century Turkic inscription on the Kocho-Tsaidam also mentions this, apart from the official dynastic histories of the Tang dynasty, the Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu. However, by the end of 682 CE, the Eastern Tujue regained their independence under Kutlugh Kagan and the kaganate was reestablished. This kaganate lasted until one of the Tiele tribes, the Hui (known in later times as the Uygurs) overthrew the II Eastern Tujue kaganate and established their own Uygur kaganate in 744 CE. The Tiele tribes were also another Turkic people but they were not the same as the Tujue and so the Tujue didn't "broke up into a whole bunch of tribes". The Tiele existed before the Tujue and were known in earlier times as the Gaoche, and even earlier, as the Dingling. The majority of the Dingling/Gaoche/Tiele lived around the Lake Baikal area, but a few Tiele had, in earlier times, migrated west into middle Central Asia. There is a possibility that the Onogurs, one of the tribes of the Huns and who later became the Bulgars, may have been a Tiele tribe or at least included some Tiele tribesmen that came from the Tiele in middle Central Asia.

As for the Western Kok Turuks, their khaganate was conquered by the Tang general Su Dingfang in 657 CE when Shabuluo khagan was captured after losing a battle fought near the Issyk-Kol. At this time, the Tang empire extended as far west as the borders of eastern Iran and nominally, their territory stretched as far west as the Caspian Sea. However, the Western Tujue rebelled in 665 CE and regained their independence. By 671 CE, however, the Western Tujue Kaganate was overthrown and was replaced by an empire known as the Turgesh, with the Western Tujue kagan fleeing to Tang China. After losing a battle to the Eastern Tujue in 698 CE, the Turgesh became an Eastern Tujue vassal until 711 CE. In 717 CE, Sulu Kagan became the kagan of the Turgesh. Under his reign, the Turgesh checked the Umayyad Arab expansion in Central Asia and managed to temporarily gain some cities from the Umayyads. He was, however, defeated at Kharistan in 738 CE and returned back to his capital only to be assassinated that year by Bagá Tarkhan Kül Chor, and with that event, the Turgesh empire was engaged in civil war until they were destroyed by the Qarluq Turks in 766 CE.

In short, the Muslim Arab expansion into the Middle East and Central Asia had nothing to do with "the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes". It must also be remembered that the Tujue were not the first Turkic people around; peoples such as the Xiongnu - who established a powerful empire during the 3rd-2nd centuries BC, the Dingling - who existed as early as the Xiongnu, and the Tashtyks - who descended from the peoples of the Minusinsk Basin in southern Siberia, all preceded the Tujue. If you want to know as much as you can about steppe peoples, you can't ignore the Chinese sources, since, for the most part, they give the most detail and info on the steppe peoples compared to most other primary sources of the periods. This may account for the confusion you had regarding the history of the Tujue/Kok Turuks.

Many converted to Islam, though some resisted. In fact, Persians (Iranians), Turks and Arabs were the three main Islamic people. They all sort of helped form what Islam was about, militarily and culturally.

That was much, much later in history. The Volga Bulgars were the first Turkic people to convert to Islam, which happened in 922 CE. The Oghuz, who were either the descendants of the Onogurs or the Tiele (the latter seems to be more likely), converted to Islam during the 10th-11th centuries when Seljuq Begh started the conversion process in the 10th century CE. The Seljuqs stem from the Oghuz. The Qara-Khanids, a state created by the remnants of the Uygurs that had fled from Mongolia to the Tarim Basin when the Uygur empire was overrun by the Kyrgyz in 840 CE, also converted to Islam during the 10th century CE, but the Islamization of the Uygurs continued until up to the 15th-16th centuries CE. Even today, many of the Turkic peoples that remained on the northeastern steppes and in Siberia aren't Muslim but still follow the native Altaic religious traditions and worship Tengri. The modern-day Mongols, who are the descendants of the amalgamation of the Turko-Mongol peoples that Chinggis Khan had united in Mongolia, are Buddhists.

And I think that there is Turkish blood in many modern peoples, from Asia Minor to Asia and the Middle East. Again, I don't know much about the people in that area after the Middle Ages.
And a main part of that is that I'm not sure how much each nation makes up of ancient Iran, so I'm not sure which of today's nations that Turks invaded, etc.

Modern-day Turkic peoples that look much like their ancestors, ie Mongoloid, include peoples such as the Tuvinians, Yakuts, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Yugurs (Sarigh Uygurs), Mongols (as in the Mongols who descended from amalgamated Turkic tribes such as the Kereyids) etc. Apparently, many of them still live on the steppe. Other Turkic peoples (especially sedentary peoples like the Uzbeks and the Tarim Uygurs) are mixed with the local populations, which includes the Uzbeks (who are mixed with Indo-Iranians), the Uygurs who live in the oasis city states of the Tarim (who are mixed with Tocharians or their descendants), and the Bashkors (who are mixed with Finno-Uralics, though some can appear quite Mongoloid while some can also appear quite Caucasoid), as well as the Turkmens (who are mixed with a bunch of local Caucasoid peoples, though their mix seems more obvious like the Bashkors) who are the descendants of the Turkomans of "medieval" times. The Turks of Turkey as well as the Tatars in European Russia and other modern-day Turkic peoples of the Near East and eastern Europe look the most Caucasoid out of all the modern-day Turkic peoples; they look almost no different from an average Westerner.

[Steppe Merc]

That was much, much later in history. The Volga Bulgars were the first Turkic people to convert to Islam, which happened in 922 CE. The Oghuz, who were either the descendants of the Onogurs or the Tiele (the latter seems to be more likely), converted to Islam during the 10th-11th centuries when Seljuq Begh started the conversion process in the 10th century CE. The Seljuqs stem from the Oghuz. The Qara-Khanids, a state created by the remnants of the Uygurs that had fled from Mongolia to the Tarim Basin when the Uygur empire was overrun by the Kyrgyz in 840 CE, also converted to Islam during the 10th century CE, but the Islamization of the Uygurs continued until up to the 15th-16th centuries CE. Even today, many of the Turkic peoples that remained on the northeastern steppes and in Siberia aren't Muslim but still follow the native Altaic religious traditions and worship Tengri. The modern-day Mongols, who are the descendants of the amalgamation of the Turko-Mongol peoples that Chinggis Khan had united in Mongolia, are Buddhists.

There were Turks who converted to Islam before 922. What of the ghulams, and the many other Turks the Abbasid Caliphate used in their wars?
And I know many Turks did not turn to Islam until much later. However, after the Arab invasions, the conversion of some began.

[jurchen fury]

There were Turks who converted to Islam before 922. What of the ghulams, and the many other Turks the Abbasid Caliphate used in their wars?

No, I'm talking about Turkic peoples as a whole, meaning their political entities, not individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that there were Iranians who converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests, namely the Iranians who lived on the northern frontiers of Arabia, yet the fact remains that the majority of Iranians converted to Islam after the Muslim Arab conquests of most of the Middle East. The fact remains that the majority of Turkic peoples at this time were non-Muslim and still believed in the native Altaic religious traditions.

Non-Arab troops, who fought mainly as cavalry, only began to be dominant after Al Mamun's victory over his brother Amin in the Abbasid civil war of 811-813 CE. Iranians formed a major part of the Khurasanis and Turkic captives only formed a part of the Khurasanis. As for the ghulams, Nicolle clearly mentions on pp. 14-15 of his Armies of Islam 7th-11th Centuries that the Turkic ghulams employed during this time consisted largely of adult male warriors and sometimes even aristocratic leaders; they were different from the ghulams of later times, who were trained in the Muslim faith since childhood and freed as Muslim warriors. These ghulams only formed a small, but significant part of the Abbasid military forces.

And I know many Turks did not turn to Islam until much later. However, after the Arab invasions, the conversion of some began.

Again, I'm talking about the Turkic peoples as a whole, not single individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that some Iranians converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests or that some Germanics converted to Christianity before the Roman empire adopted the Christian faith, but the fact remains that the majority of the mentioned peoples converted to the Muslim and Christian faiths much later in history. No Turkic political entity converted to Islam before 922 CE, and even after that time, the majority of the Turkic peoples weren't Muslim. Neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids successfully invaded the eastern steppes occupied by Turkic peoples. We have seen, for example, that the Umayyads remained on the defensive in face of the Turgesh invasions under Sulu khagan. Besides, it's a bit oversimplistic to constantly apply the characteristics of one Turkic people to all "Turks", ie, for example, just because the Seljuqs and Ottomans were Muslim doesn't mean that "Turks are Muslim" simply because the Seljuqs and Ottomans don't represent all Turks nor are they the only "Turks" around.

[Steppe Merc]

Well, I may be wrong. I don't know as much about Turks as I would like to, I mainly know about Iranians, mainly through the research of this mod.
However, I assure you, I am far more intrested in the Turks that stayed on the steppe and did not convert than the Seljuqs and Ottomans.