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    Default Re: Countdown to Open Beta - Pahlava

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    There were Turks who converted to Islam before 922. What of the ghulams, and the many other Turks the Abbasid Caliphate used in their wars?
    No, I'm talking about Turkic peoples as a whole, meaning their political entities, not individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that there were Iranians who converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests, namely the Iranians who lived on the northern frontiers of Arabia, yet the fact remains that the majority of Iranians converted to Islam after the Muslim Arab conquests of most of the Middle East. The fact remains that the majority of Turkic peoples at this time were non-Muslim and still believed in the native Altaic religious traditions.

    Non-Arab troops, who fought mainly as cavalry, only began to be dominant after Al Mamun's victory over his brother Amin in the Abbasid civil war of 811-813 CE. Iranians formed a major part of the Khurasanis and Turkic captives only formed a part of the Khurasanis. As for the ghulams, Nicolle clearly mentions on pp. 14-15 of his Armies of Islam 7th-11th Centuries that the Turkic ghulams employed during this time consisted largely of adult male warriors and sometimes even aristocratic leaders; they were different from the ghulams of later times, who were trained in the Muslim faith since childhood and freed as Muslim warriors. These ghulams only formed a small, but significant part of the Abbasid military forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    And I know many Turks did not turn to Islam until much later. However, after the Arab invasions, the conversion of some began.
    Again, I'm talking about the Turkic peoples as a whole, not single individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that some Iranians converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests or that some Germanics converted to Christianity before the Roman empire adopted the Christian faith, but the fact remains that the majority of the mentioned peoples converted to the Muslim and Christian faiths much later in history. No Turkic political entity converted to Islam before 922 CE, and even after that time, the majority of the Turkic peoples weren't Muslim. Neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids successfully invaded the eastern steppes occupied by Turkic peoples. We have seen, for example, that the Umayyads remained on the defensive in face of the Turgesh invasions under Sulu khagan. Besides, it's a bit oversimplistic to constantly apply the characteristics of one Turkic people to all "Turks", ie, for example, just because the Seljuqs and Ottomans were Muslim doesn't mean that "Turks are Muslim" simply because the Seljuqs and Ottomans don't represent all Turks nor are they the only "Turks" around.
    Last edited by jurchen fury; 09-18-2005 at 01:38.
    "Why did you not say to him, -- He is simply a man, who in his eager pursuit of knowledge forgets his food, who in the joy of its attainment forgets his sorrows, and who does not perceive that old age is coming on?" - Kong Fu Zi, Lun Yu Book 7, Ch. 18


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