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Thread: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Though I am sure the normal fanatics will come with the same response's and not even read the article, I hope some of the more open minded patrons will read the article and realise that there is huge merit in what Chavez has done and is doing, it is unparelled in South America, even after US intervention and behaviour more in line with terrorists than the 'freedom bringing messiah'.

    Who can deny the good that is being done? Who can deny what the left tries to bring to those who have worked hard and not be able to gain anything?

    The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor
    Venzuela´s Salsa revolution

    Latin America is a graveyard of false prophets. On every corner there is a reminder of the political Messiahs who failed. Bolivar, Che, Evita, Fidel - all are remembered in statues and wall paintings that look out over a continent now almost as poor and unfree as Africa. But something is rumbling here in the barrios around Caracas, something that is causing tremors that are felt in the White House and every poor country in the world. A Salsa revolution is spreading out from the slums of Venezuela, and it is the first in Latin
    America to be both totally democratic and slowly, startlingly effective.

    But to begin this story, I have to take you on a tour of the Old Venezuela. Barrio Nueva Tacagua is a shanty-town in the high hills that sprawl around Caracas, built by the government at the height of the 1970s oil boom. The hundreds of homes here are made of pressed cardboard and rusting tin. They are connected by paths made of more of the same, with the odd old bedspread tossed in.

    The barrio nestles in what looks like a river of trash and shit. Because there is no rubbish collection, because the sewers cannot cope with solids, everything is simply thrown further downhill, in the hope it will rot away. Children with old, lined faces play there. Gladys De Tarate lives in a swollen sardine tin with her four children, her husband, and her mother. She tells me, “This land was never meant to be built on. It is not safe. We are on a fault-line, and we feel like we are waiting for the next mudslide, like the ones in 1999 that killed tens of thousands of people.” But there are more immediate worries: when it rains, the water acquires crashes downhill so fast it can carry cars and homes with it. Last month, it took a small girl.

    In the early eighties, the government sent some trailers here and boasted about it for years – but they were unbearably hot, “like ovens on the inside”, one man explains, and had to be trashed. The public sector was virtually non-existent: nobody here saw a doctor except in the most extreme emergencies, and the school closed for three years after the roof caved in.

    This is the life that was given to the eighty percent of mostly brown-skinned Venezuelans, locked out of the country’s white oligarchy under forty years of corrupt psuedo-democracy.

    This Venezuela is collapsing. Not just metaphorically but literally. The barrios are sagging down the hills; homes disappear in landslides every other month. And – as a result of the slow-burn social revolution here - these communities are (at last) being relocated or rebuilt as part of what everybody here calls “the process.”

    To understand how The Process began, you have to go back to 1991 – the year the old Venezuela reached its nadir. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) demanded the elected government of Carlos Perez cut the tiny thread of government support provided to places like Barrio Nueva Tacagua. As ever, they put their own neoliberal ideology – small government, low taxes, make everyone pay for public services – above democracy. Even though Perez had campaigned on precisely the opposite platform, he gave in. The price of food quadrupled, unemployment soared, and the meager scraps of public services available to the poor were cut. The barrios erupted. The government’s response? A massacre of over 500 people. Residents of this barrio remember machine-gun toting soldiers arriving on the day of the uprising. They shot a man and tossed his body downhill. The protests ended.

    But from this IMF-ed up chaos, they explain, an alternative emerged. A left-wing Venezuelan general, Hugo Chávez, began to articulate an alternative to the neoliberalism that had been imposed on Latin America for over two decades – the neoliberalism that has created the slowest economic growth and the highest inequality in living memory. In 1998 he was elected President. Since then, he has been approved – in free, open elections and referenda – no less than seven times.

    The Chávez Process is made flesh in a woman called Maria González who I stumbled across in one of Venezuela’s roughest barrios. She is a 60 year old woman with a determined face and a sweet swarm of grandchildren buzzing around her. She was sitting in a class in one of the tens of thousands of educational ‘missions’ established by the Chávez government. After the government doubled education spending, the barrios are now filled with new schools. These aren’t just for children, but for the adult majority who were failed by the education system.

    Maria explains that, in the old Venezuela, most people left school at the age of 12. She wasn’t even that lucky - she wasn’t educated at all. Like millions of Venezuelans, in the midst of spurting oil wealth she was left illiterate and innumerate. She brandishes a piece of chalk with a smile, and slowly, carefully, writes her name on a blackboard. She turns to me and offers a small nod. “I have worked all my life like a mule. But now I will not die as ignorant as a mule,” she says.

    In every barrio, I seek out the medical missions, one of the other jewels of the new Venezuela. These are freshly minted clinics – acquired with the country’s oil wealth - where the poor are seeing doctors, often for the first time in their lives. Thousands of sickly Marias troop through for medicine every week: I met many who said they would be dead without the Missions. Often, those of us concerned about human rights think only in negative terms – a massacre here, a prison there. But all across Venezuela I keep finding the polar opposite of massacres in the missions: people mown back to health with medicine-bullets. They have even appeared in Barrio Nueva Tacagua while its residents wait for relocation.

    Despite all this, the democratizing process in
    Venezuela has been subject to torrential demonisation and even a (briefly successful) coup. I’ll be talking more about the opposition next week, but the core reason for these assaults on Venezuela’s elected government is stark. Oil wealth is supposed to trickle (no, cascade) upwards to multinational corporations, not downwards towards the poor. The President sitting on the largest pot of oil outside the Middle East is not supposed to listen to his people and spend his country’s petrodollars on education and health. He is not supposed to increase taxes on the likes of Haliburton from a negligible 1% to 30% in order to pay for schools and hospitals for people like Gladys and Maria.

    A classroom, a hospital, a barrio: these might sound like unlikely locations for a social revolution. In Europe, we take it for granted that our governments should provide these services for the poor. But on a continent which has had neoliberalism undemocratically forced down its throat for decades, it has taken a Salsa revolution – the loud, proud call from the barrios of Venezuela - to produce social democracy.


    The Independent - 19/08/2005
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    As I've said before, I supported reforms in Venezuela. It's problems were stereotypical and the IMF is not much help in such matters.

    However, my problem is with the way Chavez is posturing internationally as well as indications that he favors Cuban/Russian/Chinese style communism. If he wants to work on a nuke program with countries like Iran (as he has stated), support leftist guerrilla's and work actively against the U.S., then I think we should entertain various ways of removing him from power before he becomes a real threat.
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    I agree with that, but as always seing policts from a moral point of view is always wrong, they always are playing between hell and heaven, in the end "the end justifies the way (that's how english say it?)".
    I don't like that the article say that el Che or Evita failed, they don't failed. El Che Guevara was about to make a revolution on Argentina, and then he failed, but in Cuba he achived all (it's a shame tha Fidel Castro threw it all to the trash). Evita was one of the best builders and progresists here, but she never failed, she just well...died.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    I agree with that, but as always seing policts from a moral point of view is always wrong, .
    I would like to know how someone from South America feels about the efforts of Chavez. I know what is reported - but its often skewed by the political desires of the reporter.

    Can you provide any insight to the issue, Soulforged?
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    I would like to know how someone from South America feels about the efforts of Chavez. I know what is reported - but its often skewed by the political desires of the reporter.

    Can you provide any insight to the issue, Soulforged?
    You mean like my insight or my countries insight. I would say you this:
    I see Chavez as the product of years of economical and political isolation, degradation, opression and manipulation of Latin America. I don't see any man in politics like a good person, but here we need revolutionary people or at least people wich takes decitions fast. Chavez is providing socialism at least to calm down the destruction that capitalism and specially neoliberalism does. But is hard to do so in a place where you are pressed by all sides.
    Even so, for now i'll stick to my view of a demagoge, but without denying that demagoges sometimes do instead of just talk.
    For my country's side, well... I really don't know, here most people are exhausted of hearing to politics and liars, and corrupts, and i'm not the exception, but i know something because i study laws in the UBA (the greatest public university in Argentina), so i will say that Chavez is just another subject of background. Argentinians are too worried to view anothers country politics, and the ones that can made some time (the rich of course), most are against Chavez politics for being a socialist (or at least is what him sais), the ones who aren't are either, politics (who should never be trusted) or philantropes that cares for giving to the poor, so that way they can stay in the position (at least is how i see it).
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    My Venezuelan friends had rather mixed opinions of him when I asked around the time of the coup. They had relatives on both sides, and one in govt who I believe was detained briefly.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    How long, I wonder, will they be able to tax the companies before they destroy them? Before he drives all business out and all that's left are slums, like Cuba?

    Oh, and if Chavez is such a great guy, why has he seized control of newspapers that speak against him, and criminalized protesting or even speaking against the gov't? Care to explain?

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    How long, I wonder, will they be able to tax the companies before they destroy them? Before he drives all business out and all that's left are slums, like Cuba?

    Oh, and if Chavez is such a great guy, why has he seized control of newspapers that speak against him, and criminalized protesting or even speaking against the gov't? Care to explain?

    Crazed Rabbit
    No politic is meant to be a great guy. Bush isn't, Roosvelt wasn't, Julius Caesar sure wasn't. The personal feelings and moral should be out of the question to any politics that has some selfrespect. And as i said, not everybody, even here, sees Chavez like a "good guy".
    The thing with the newspaper can be done for the lack of loyalty on administration and the little real power that people has. Anyway if the things start to go smoother from now on, i asure you that all Velezolans will forget about the limited freedom of the press for a long time. Your country is proud of the freedom of any kind (tough i don't know it's such as everybody paints it) that they've, but here the great majority of the people starts for thinking if they'll survive another day without starving to death, die of some desease, being killed by extremists or terrorist, being rob or killed by one buck...do you get the picture?
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    No politic is meant to be a great guy. Bush isn't, Roosvelt wasn't, Julius Caesar sure wasn't. The personal feelings and moral should be out of the question to any politics that has some selfrespect. And as i said, not everybody, even here, sees Chavez like a "good guy".
    The thing with the newspaper can be done for the lack of loyalty on administration and the little real power that people has. Anyway if the things start to go smoother from now on, i asure you that all Velezolans will forget about the limited freedom of the press for a long time. Your country is proud of the freedom of any kind (tough i don't know it's such as everybody paints it) that they've, but here the great majority of the people starts for thinking if they'll survive another day without starving to death, die of some desease, being killed by extremists or terrorist, being rob or killed by one buck...do you get the picture?
    I get the picture I always have. But I think south america and communist europe and asia are proof that the unretrained implementation of socialist and capitalist ideals in a nation lead to inequality, poverty, and oppression. In countries like Chile, Bolivia, and Venezuela where capitalist/neoliberal ideas were put into practice made the country poorer and worse off than they were before. And in eastern europe and east asia (and Cuba) the "communist" governments there impelemented socialist ideals woth out restraint and it also made the nation poorer and worse off than they were. In both cases you had all the power concentrated in an elite. In the capitalist nations in south america you had the power in the hands of the wealthest families, in the communist countries the loyal party followers had all the power. But in both cases it leads to the vast majority getting bent over a table (and ass-raped by those in power). When what is really needed is equal parts socialism and capitalism in the running of a government.

    Also Soulforged you keep saying politic when you should be using politician. That is the english term for a person involved in governing politics (like a president or senator or king). And it's the ends justify the means in english too. Hope you don't take this the wrong way I'm just trying to make your posts easier for me to read. I really want to hear what you have to say.
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Oh no, i like being evaluated, in fact that's my politics, thanks lars.
    But you're wrong in the case of Cuba. Before Castro, Batista was a puppet of USA (tough yankees will say i can't prove it), he followed the politics in favour of the yankees and left his people in misery, the yankees banks received a lot of profits in that period, and that's why so many people supported the revolution on the first place including "El Che". The "communism" of Fidel improved many things on Cuba, specially education, but yes it's not communism and it has a limited freedom of expression, but as i said, to a country on misery that's the last important thing. You've to think more in terms of actions that leads to the more benefial end than in terms of ideal liberation, when the economic background in asured then you can think in the rest. The communist nations (i keep saying) implemented little of the socialist ideas, they never tended to make the people a community but to make some elite group richer than the others and at the same time make the others stay in their places and shuted up. El Che belived in that, Fidel Castro was just the result of a man too ambitious to be in power of a socialist-communist nation, i really don't know what will happen when he dies, he is the pillar of the "communist" party there and a great politician.
    The situation here is difficult to explain clearly, and more difficult is to explain it's causes. But in general the opening of third world commerces to the rest of the world, wich implies the incoming of powerful competitors, was the first cause for the situation. The corruption took it's tool too, but it grew when the commerce was opened.
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    IIRC Fidel has set up Cuba so that when he kicks it his brother Raul or one of Raul's kids become president. He also made most governmental positions below president elected. But even though Fidel runs an autoritarian regime he has made things better for the common Cubans, even if only marginally. Education is decent and universal, health care is free and mostly acessable. Still I get what you mean by if you worry about where your next meal is coming from or if your tarpaper wellfare shack is going to blow over in the next strong wind personal freedoms mean exactly jack and shit, and jack left town.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor: Norway.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor:
    Isnt this a non sequitur. I mean whats to prove? Is there any doubt that wealth no matter where it comes from can be used to help the poor? Maybe a better title for this thread woud be the nation that proves robbing from the rich can help the poor but again that goes wothout saying.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    You mean like my insight or my countries insight. I would say you this:
    Either is fine - since the media often protrays things that are really not there. I like personal opinion better since its what you know and understand, but a good local editorial on the subject is perfectly fine also.

    I see Chavez as the product of years of economical and political isolation, degradation, opression and manipulation of Latin America. I don't see any man in politics like a good person, but here we need revolutionary people or at least people wich takes decitions fast. Chavez is providing socialism at least to calm down the destruction that capitalism and specially neoliberalism does. But is hard to do so in a place where you are pressed by all sides.
    Even so, for now i'll stick to my view of a demagoge, but without denying that demagoges sometimes do instead of just talk.
    Thats good - can you expound on the effect Chavez is having on "calming down the destruction," I find the term interesting in the aspect that you used it - and wish to understand how come you chose that term.

    For my country's side, well... I really don't know, here most people are exhausted of hearing to politics and liars, and corrupts, and i'm not the exception, but i know something because i study laws in the UBA (the greatest public university in Argentina), so i will say that Chavez is just another subject of background. Argentinians are too worried to view anothers country politics, and the ones that can made some time (the rich of course), most are against Chavez politics for being a socialist (or at least is what him sais), the ones who aren't are either, politics (who should never be trusted) or philantropes that cares for giving to the poor, so that way they can stay in the position (at least is how i see it).
    Thanks.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor: Norway.
    Agreed, but Chavez ain't doing a bad job either.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Agreed, but Chavez ain't doing a bad job either.
    Says you.
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Says you.
    Yes, how observant.

    So what is Chavez doing so wrong then, real things rather than made up US media things, please.

    And are you denying the great steps being made by Chavez, as the article states, is anything but good?
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Thats good - can you expound on the effect Chavez is having on "calming down the destruction," I find the term interesting in the aspect that you used it - and wish to understand how come you chose that term.
    Well i read very well english and spell it very well too, but writing it....
    What i mean with calming the destruction is simple: capitalism works, between other things, by creating two classes -capitalists and workers- the socialists politcs and actions -for example increasing education, pensions, social assistence- from the keynesian model or the benefactor state try to do exactly the oposite this way decreasing the differences between clases. If you ask me it fails, because as i always said the problem is in the model and no politics could help if the economy still needs for two classes to work.
    Last edited by Soulforged; 08-22-2005 at 02:13.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    Well i read very well english and spell it very well too, but writing it....
    What i mean with calming the destruction is simple: capitalism works, between other things, by creating two classes -capitalists and workers- the socialists politcs and actions -for example increasing education, pensions, social assistence- from the keynesian model or the benefactor state try to do exactly the oposite this way decreasing the differences between clases. If you ask me it fails, because as i always said the problem is in the model and no politics could help if the economy still needs for two classes to work.
    Okay I think I understand what you are saying.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    So what is Chavez doing so wrong then, real things rather than made up US media things, please.
    Perhaps you missed this:

    Oh, and if Chavez is such a great guy, why has he seized control of newspapers that speak against him, and criminalized protesting or even speaking against the gov't? Care to explain?
    Crazed Rabbit
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    And perhaps you missed my post after yours...
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Soul:

    I understand your point, but disagree with the premise. Nothing inherent in Capitalism requires that you stay a "worker." You too, through hard work, luck, intelligence, can acquire capital and put it to use. The capitalism you describe, workers and owners locked into their respective roles with no changes possible, existed (exists?) only where the pre-existing culture favored a rigid class or caste system. That is a result of the pre-existing cultural structure, NOT of capitalism.


    Good stuff on this thread, I'm learning a lot about Chavez and Venez'


    I wouldl't label Batista a U.S. Puppet. We generally worked to keep our puppets in power. He and his administration were corrupt enough to make one start thinking about RTW 1.0 diplomats and briberies.


    SF
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  23. #23
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    The capitalism you describe, workers and owners locked into their respective roles with no changes possible, existed (exists?) only where the pre-existing culture favored a rigid class or caste system. That is a result of the pre-existing cultural structure, NOT of capitalism.
    This is why I think education should be run by the state (with private ones to cater for special interest groups) so that everyone has the knowledge sets to choose their career and that you are not locked into your education path by the wealth of your parents. The best students get the best education regardless of parental class.
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  24. #24
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    This is why I think education should be run by the state
    This is why I think it shouldnt.

    (with private ones to cater for special interest groups) so that everyone has the knowledge sets to choose their career and that you are not locked into your education path by the wealth of your parents.
    All schools here used to be private and yet people still rose from poverty to the upper class. Free education like free anything makes you less appreciative of iit. I found that out real fast in college when I discovered they didnt care if you showed for class or not like in HS as they had your money. If you fail you can give them more and take the class over.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  25. #25
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Soul:

    I understand your point, but disagree with the premise. Nothing inherent in Capitalism requires that you stay a "worker." You too, through hard work, luck, intelligence, can acquire capital and put it to use. The capitalism you describe, workers and owners locked into their respective roles with no changes possible, existed (exists?) only where the pre-existing culture favored a rigid class or caste system. That is a result of the pre-existing cultural structure, NOT of capitalism.


    Good stuff on this thread, I'm learning a lot about Chavez and Venez'


    I wouldl't label Batista a U.S. Puppet. We generally worked to keep our puppets in power. He and his administration were corrupt enough to make one start thinking about RTW 1.0 diplomats and briberies.


    SF
    Well you interpreted me wrong then. The point is that x number of the members of any given capitalist society has to be capitalists (without them the very word that describes the economic model will lost sense) and another y number must remain workers. One without the other are pointless, but specially capitalists because to mantain that privileged position that they keep without working they need the workers. You would be right about the persistence of the culture, because for what i understand USA was at the beggining a country of laborers instead of capitalists, but you will be wrong with that broad assumption, here it was not for culture but for political issues (i can't explain it here, is too large, and is part of history). Anyway this is not a discussion about capitalism vs. socialism-communism, it had been discussed before.

    And i would still call Batista a puppet. This is my definition of it: weak figure with lack of character to remain on and apply power, that needs the support of others to make his government legitim. The supporters will be USA. Why? Because they needed (need?) an open Cuba to commerce and crush it's economy, it doesn't matter if the crushing is intended or not, eventually some weak group of companies will be crushed, it happened so many times...
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  26. #26
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    This is why I think it shouldnt.



    All schools here used to be private and yet people still rose from poverty to the upper class. Free education like free anything makes you less appreciative of iit. I found that out real fast in college when I discovered they didnt care if you showed for class or not like in HS as they had your money. If you fail you can give them more and take the class over.
    And you will be wrong. Information and ideas should run free of charge, because of what they are and for the sake of evolution and progress. Here the public ones are the more visited and the ones that give more importance to your title (even internationally), also the ones with more qualified profesors and with more qualified egresants (the ones that recieve the title).
    I asure you one thing: if you end with the intelectual property and with all the restrictions to knowledge and information use, there will be much more interest on taking it and learn. Most of the people here are disuaded exactly because private education on their field of interest/talent is too expensive.
    Born On The Flames

  27. #27
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    All schools here used to be private and yet people still rose from poverty to the upper class. Free education like free anything makes you less appreciative of iit. I found that out real fast in college when I discovered they didnt care if you showed for class or not like in HS as they had your money. If you fail you can give them more and take the class over.
    In Australia you only go into a private university if you don't have the brains to get into a public one. It is a competitive system with a quota of places in each course at each university, and the universities will also compete for the best students (PhD poaching is quite common).

    So if you have the goods you do it for free. If you don't have it then you can pay your way through... same as foreign students do as well.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  28. #28
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    Bah! I had a nice, medium-length, coherent post on this, and then internet explorer crashed. I hate that. Too late at night to try and recover much of it but anyway basically--

    Chavez's recent reforms are in many ways superficial. He has used the unanticipated boon of high oil prices to buy some freebies for the poor, but the underlying economy remains weak. In many ways this has always been a problem for Venezuela-- too much being focused on oil and other sectors not getting developed.

    It is also a fact that Chavez, through his wrong-headed, confrontational style of politics, brought on several years of political and economic chaos which devastated Venezuela. I was there last in 2003-- thing were not pretty. Poverty increased dramatically, and Caracas became an extremely violent city. Small businesses were going bankrupt left and right, and the only people who supported Chavez were the very poor, who had nothing to lose, and some of the passively rich, who also had nothing to lose.

    I can't comment much on the current situation, I've been out of touch-- but I imagine things have leveled out a bit. It is at least evident that Chavez has effectively smothered the political crisis-- which, practically, is a good thing. I also imagine that things are a bit better economically, and that people are not as pressed as they were before.

    But I can guarantee you that the economy is still fundamentally weak, and definitely weaker than when Chavez took power. Chavez can use $60-a-barrel oil prices to build as many token schools and cart around as many Cuban doctors as he likes-- but he cannot solve Venezuela's problems without more sustainable changes, without creating a new foundation for Venezuela to build upon (nearly all the foundation that existed before he has ripped out).

    I am not saying that the Chavez "revolution" will necessarily end badly-- I am just asking you all to take it in its context, in terms of what has actually happened.

    DA

  29. #29
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    So you're saying that Chavez practically cleansed the entire country's economy and now have to rebuild it back from zero, then? Well, I haven't actually visited Venezuela so I can't really take a stand about Chavez. And I think that by "capitalists" Soulforged meant the word in its negative form. Capitalists as "fat yankee monopolising all the businesses, bribing officials, 'stealing' 'our' resources, etc." rather than capitalists as those people who support the free market. You know, the Banana Republic style.

    Anyway, what's the US media saying about Chavez?

  30. #30
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: The nation that proves oil wealth can be used to help the poor

    To make things simple I just say I agree with JAG on this one
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