Germany or Russia?

[caesar44]

I would like to add my slightly differented opinion. Please do not think of me as a neo-nazi or a stalin-lover, for I am neither:

A Brief Debate on the Nature of Evil

1) Were Stalin and Hitler humen? Or were they simply an incarnation of Evil? Most people like to consider these two fellas as a deviation of the human nature, meaning not humen, but something else, an evil unique and without precedent in human history.
Truely, Stalin ordered more deaths than any other individual EVER and Hitler commited his killing in the most proffessoinal, calculated way (the guy used logistic services, for God's sake, for his death camps...). But, in murder, size doesn't, or shouldn't matter.Ordering the death of 1 is as despicable as ordering the death of 1 million, cause the value of human life cannot be measured.

2)They were both humen.Neither they were paranoid nor crazy, nor jumped out of a pitt from hell, nor were beaten by their mothers or fathers in order to devevlop into monsters. If we deny them their "humanity", if we put them in the side of human history, we will be commiting a terrible mistake. We will be unable to explain WHY they commited their crimes. Hitler was the sub-product of a great but humiliated nation that was kicked around like a pile of s**** and Stalin was the sub-product of a system that was struggling to survive while beaten from all sides. In historical comparison terms, Stalin reminds me of the Mameluks and Hitler of the Boxers. Same pattern.

3)My conclusion is this: History is not created by monsters, it is created by people. And as my great ancestor Thoukidides wrote "men change but what motivates men remains the same" (the peloponessian war)

Your great ancestor Thoukidides...aha
Your argument is good (heard it before and I agree with it) .

[Advo-san]

Your great ancestor Thoukidides...aha
Your argument is good (heard it before and I agree with it) .

Thank you for your kind words!

[Taurus]

Well in my opinion both sides would be very evenly matched but in different ways. Russia having the endless amounts of manpower and Germany having the better technology I beleive. I would have thought it would have been an very long war with both sides winning and losing at different times however I think that Germany would have lost because of the harsh Russian winters.

[PanzerJaeger]

Without 2 other fronts, Germany would have certainly defeated Russia - especially without the allied aid aswell.

I of course would choose to live under the German system. Im pure German and not of the Jewish religion, so I would have relatively little to fear under the Nazis and could probably make a good life for myself.

Under the soviets however, there were no rules. If you looked at someone the wrong way, or even if your neighbor just disliked you, you could be put on some list somewhere and end up dead.

[Meneldil]

The Estimated Death toll of Stalin's cruelty was 54 million, not 30.

I don't know where you get your estimate, but either they are severely biased, or taking into account people who died during WWII, and thus, whose death is Hitler's fault.
If it's not taking account of WWII casualties, then it's screwed up, cause a country like USSR couldn't have lost 54 + 20 + 20 = 94 millions of people in a few decades and achieved to become a major technological and military power in the meanwhile.

Anyway, if you got that way, 54 millions is still lower than the total of 60 millions killed during WWII (once again, that's Hitler's fault. Stalin would probably have invaded Eastern Europe later, but who knows ?). And Hitler's reign was shorter than Stalin's one.

But, in murder, size doesn't, or shouldn't matter.Ordering the death of 1 is as despicable as ordering the death of 1 million, cause the value of human life cannot be measured.

Totally agree, and that's why I think Hitler was far worse than Lenine, Stalin or Mao. As soon as he decided to launch the final solution and to create extermination camps, he became worse than anyone who lived on this planet.

Well as an average citizen germany

As long as average mean 'no socialist, no gay, member of the NASDAP and of german origin', yeah that would have been alright. But replace german by Slave, and here we go.

Under the soviets however, there were no rules. If you looked at someone the wrong way, or even if your neighbor just disliked you, you could be put on some list somewhere and end up dead.

As if it didn't happen in Germany

The situation of Germany in the case of an attack against ussr would have been much better than what it was in 1941 : France would have remained neutral or maybe friendly and Great Britain probably friendly.

No way. Germany was France and UK ideological opponent, much more than USSR. Both countries were trying to form an alliance with USSR in 1938 (before the germano-soviet pact). As soon as the Munich treaty was signed, everyone knew war would start at some point, and *if* Hitler would have decided to invade USSR before France, France and UK would have declared war on Germany at some point.

And fascist countries weren't seen as neutral by conservatives from France and UK, except if conservative means 'fascist'...

When it was clear Russia would win we stepped in to stop them from taking over more terrirtory.

So, basically, you admit that operation Overlord was just a way to stop USSR, and not to kick the Germans out of Western Europe ? It kinda kills the 'We saved you althought it was contrary to our interests' arguing you use each time you're speaking about France, heh

[caesar44]

More -

If in 1936 you had asked most americans if war broke out between these two nations who would you favor I think Germany wins hands down.

But I do believe Stalin was worse than Hitler. The only reason we went with Russia is Germany was closer ..

He killed far more of his own and other people than Hitler did.

Again I believe he killed more Russians than Germans


Well , there is some sympathy to the guy here , don't you think ?

[Gregoshi]

Well , there is some sympathy to the guy here , don't you think ?

Sympathy? You must take the comments in context - choosing between two great evils. To justify your choice, you must try to rationalize your decision in choosing between two irrational (excuse the expression) "human beings" in an irrational scenario.

On this subject, there are the people of Russia in areas conquered by the Germans who had this very choice: live under Hitler or Stalin. Judging by the partisan activities in the occupied territories, many chose Stalin.

[PanzerJaeger]

Its important to note that the eastern Europeans and russians that were against Stalin had a venue to fight him besides resorting to partisan attacks. There were so many anti-communists in the occupied countries that the SS was able to recruit many divisions soley from those countries. In fact, at one point the SS was officially only allowed to recruit in the occupied nations, while the wehrmacht drew from Germany.

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=Gregoshi]...To justify your choice, you must try to rationalize your decision in choosing between two irrational (excuse the expression) "human beings" in an irrational scenario...

Sorry , but I can't .

[RabidGibbon]

Originally posted by caesar44

Again I say - ask Roosevelt why he declared war on him with out real provocation , ha ? he saw him and his evil and cruel regime more dangerous than the Soviet regime , why ?
Well , I am glad to be on the same side with Roosevelt here...

Perhaps a bit late in this conversation to bring this up, but Hitler declared war on America after Pearl Harbour.

However It should be also pointed out that Roosevelt did a lot to help the UK before war was declared with the Lend Lease program.

Despite his help of the UK in the early years of the war however Roosevelt constantly obstructed Churchills attempts to try and make sure Russia did not dominate Eastern Europe after the second world war. For some reason Roosevelt seemed more afraid of British Imperialism than Soviet Imperialism (Cos' Soviet Imperialism wasn't called Imperialism).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Perhaps a bit late in this conversation to bring this up, but Hitler declared war on America after Pearl Harbour.

However It should be also pointed out that Roosevelt did a lot to help the UK before war was declared with the Lend Lease program.

Despite his help of the UK in the early years of the war however Roosevelt constantly obstructed Churchills attempts to try and make sure Russia did not dominate Eastern Europe after the second world war. For some reason Roosevelt seemed more afraid of British Imperialism than Soviet Imperialism (Cos' Soviet Imperialism wasn't called Imperialism).

A number of historians put this down to Roosevelt's desire to get Russia into the war against Japan in order to minimize U.S. casualties. Remember, Trinity was not yet complete. Plus, Roosevelt was dying at the time of Yalta, and not at his best.

Seamus

[Meneldil]

PJ, I can see your point of view, and I agree that Hitler likely launched the Holocaust for the good of Germany, and not only for himself.

Yet, saying that Hitler did not thought of the extermination camps, or that he was not aware of what was happening is just wrong. Hitler agreed when the SS decided to use gas chambers, and I'm fairly sure he heard of the so called medical experimentations led by this good old Mengele.

And Stalin did not have his word on all the deaths that happened in USSR. Sure, he condamned personnally some of his friends, of his family, but it was what ? At best 0.05% of the people killed.

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=RabidGibbon]
However It should be also pointed out that Roosevelt did a lot to help the UK before war was declared with the Lend Lease program.

Indeed ! just what I have said...

[Gregoshi]

[QUOTE=caesar44]

...To justify your choice, you must try to rationalize your decision in choosing between two irrational (excuse the expression) "human beings" in an irrational scenario...

Sorry , but I can't .

I was not clear in my meaning. I did not mean "you" caesar44, I meant "you" as in those who tried to answer the question one way or the other.