Attack, Charge.....What's the Diff?

[Phil M]

Every Unit has an Attack and a Charge rating.

So when is a unit charging and not attacking?
Or,how do you get a unit to attack without charging?

I couldn't find this specifically stated in the manual or any
of the guides.....so no RTFM please

Though it's probably in there but I missed it

ANYHOW.....WHAT A KICK ARSE OF A GAME!!!!!!!!

Never got Shogan all those years ago, tried the demo, but the Battles just didn't seem to grab me for some reason.

Picked up MTW on budget, and well, .......something clicked,
Just love the play on the campaign map, best Strat game I've ever played.....well, up there with
Star Wars Rebellion.

And the battles well.....say no more

[tigger_on_vrb]

Attack rating is how big your chance of killing an enemy is (relative to their defence rating)
Charge applies for the first few seconds after combat is started (when you tell a unit to attck another - you dont get it if you are attacked from the side or rear or by surprise). AFAIK the charge number is a bonus added to your attack rating for this short period of time.
Charge can make all the difference especially for cavalry and units like woodsmen who have low attack but a huge charge.
A question for others..... is the negative moral modifier you get for being hit in the flank or rear more when the enemy unit is charging rather than just attcking you?

[CBR]

Yes the charge value is added to the attack value for a few seconds. An attacking unit will not get this bonus if its too close to the target when doing a charge. If you just walk a line of units into an enemy line they will start fighting but again it will be without the charge bonus.


CBR

[Phil M]

Arrrr!!! Thanks guys, that was answered with great exquisiteness (had to look that spelling up )

So the unit needs time to get up to charging speed.
Think I remember reading somthing bout that

"Attack rating is how big your chance of killing an enemy is (relative to their defence rating)"
Arrr Right.....Elementry Strat lingo, fancy forgetting that


Anyhow, 1/2 after midnight here so must skamoose!!!!!
My most plagued addition

[Geezer57]

Another factor to keep in mind might be called the "3-second rule". In order to get the charge bonus to their attack factor, a unit must travel in a straight line far enough to get up to speed - about 3 seconds on level terrain. If you wait too long to countercharge an approaching enemy, and they get close, you won't be able to get up to "ramming speed".
Tired units often won't be able to charge - they just can't move fast enough. And heavily armored troops aren't always able to charge up a steep hill, even if they aren't all that tired.

[Zild]

This is one I've always been a little worried on, getting the charge distance right.

Is that three seconds from when the attack is ordered, or from when the last unit starts moving (there's a big difference, sometimes...)

Any other general advice on charging? Or ways to know if you are doing it right or wrong?

[EatYerGreens]

Zild, when you say 'last unit starts moving' it sounds like you're referring to making a massed charge using many units at once and some take their time about getting off the mark? I don't know the answer to that but it reminded me of something.

I'm watching a unit of 100 spearmen and I order it to charge at something, from a standing start. I notice the front rank begins to run, then the second rank, then third and so on. Not all at once. It's really noticeable at 5 ranks deep. Anyway, the thing is their rank-to-rank spacing is changed when they are running and I wonder if that alters factors like the 'rank bonus'? Anyone know?

In other words, they get enhanced attack factor for a few seconds when they hit the receiving unit but, by losing rank bonus, their defence rating is temporarily lowered, which weakens them in meleé. If so, it might pay to have their icon highlighted and, once their 3-second bonus period is up, hit the 'stop' icon, so as to cancel the charge/attack order and then have them form up into close ranks again and do 'nothing'. That's to say hold form/hold position and just sit and take what the enemy unit dishes out to them but, this time, making the most of their rank bonus in defence mode.

For the uninitiated, 'rank bonus' reflects the fact that spears are long enough for the front 3 ranks to bring weapons to bear simultaneously, making it harder for attackers to get in amongst them and score kills. It enhances their defence rating, especially against horsemen.

For swords units, only the front rank can bring weapons to bear, until they manage to actually break into a formation and intermingle with the enemy unit. This maximises the amount of individuals fighting but at the expense of their own defence rating, since fellows to either side or behind them could lose their swordfight and leave them in a (local) 2v1 situation.

Cavalry charges have tremendous impact but penetrate so deeply into infantry units that they often take heavy casualties if allowed to remain in prolonged meleé, for exactly this reason.

Recommendation from the forum posts I've seen is to charge, make the most of the heavy contact, then attempt to disengage, pull away, turn around and charge again. This is tricky to achieve since disengaging necessarily means they breifly have their backs to the enemy. Also, the battle software may misenterpret this disengagement as a rout/prisoner capture opportunity and register further losses accordingly. However, if the main meleé is foot vs foot and the cav charge is into the flank, it should work okay as the foot unit is probably too preoccupied to take the cav as prisoners when they turn away for their second strike.

[Matty]

Leave the charging to your general - single click the target unit you want to attack and the general will decide when to start the charge. This can be frustrating as they'll wander over for a while before barrelling in at the last moment. But if you double click ('run') on the enemy or slightly behind, you end up knackering out your men as they leg it all over the shop.

I've noticed the AI on expert or above will charge with cavalry, disengage and then charge again - for me its a bit too much point and click work if I've got a big battle going on so I'll just select where and when to launch the cavalry charge so that I'm pretty sure of breaking the enemy first wallop. Then its just a question of routing them off the field.

[Grey_Fox]

If you only single click the unit will not actually reach the speed to get the charge bonus. You are better off just running at the target manually.

[Zild]

@EYG: Yeah, I meant the time between the first and last man moving, shouldn't have said 'unit' there

I don't think the distance between the ranks will have an effect on the combat - I can't see CA going into that kind of detail. I think it's just there for the appearance of realism. (I hope so, otherwise the micromanagement of it sounds like too much hassle!)

[antisocialmunky]

Leave the charging to your general - single click the target unit you want to attack and the general will decide when to start the charge. This can be frustrating as they'll wander over for a while before barrelling in at the last moment. But if you double click ('run') on the enemy or slightly behind, you end up knackering out your men as they leg it all over the shop.

I've noticed the AI on expert or above will charge with cavalry, disengage and then charge again - for me its a bit too much point and click work if I've got a big battle going on so I'll just select where and when to launch the cavalry charge so that I'm pretty sure of breaking the enemy first wallop. Then its just a question of routing them off the field.

Single click works for charging, however I like to double to make sure.

[EatYerGreens]

I've had interesting results where I double click on the ground - to make a destination - rather than on the enemy unit.

This is foot units I'm talking about here but could equally apply to Cav.

Where my unit's only straight-line route to the destination is through the enemy unit, they will run at full speed, crash into the enemy, be brought to a halt and will then fight it out. If they win, they will advance to the spot I told them to go to and then, vitally, STOP.

This is for battles where I know the AI has shedloads of reinforcements to come onto the field and I know my attention will be divided for the time between ordering the unit to engage and it finishing its fight. This ensures that it will break off from pursuing routers at the place where I want them to stop and I retain overall cohesion. Divided attention factor means a plain attack order will have my men chasing them across to the back end of the field then, whilst out of my sight, becoming a sitting duck for incoming enemies.

I've yet to have a chance to test this next bit but I hope to use the same technique to get a cavalry unit, in wedge, to strike a unit in the flank, push through the unit and out the other side, breaking up their formation and disengaging without having to do a risky 180deg turn in the middle of the meleé. Once out in the open, they can reform and I repeat it in the opposite direction, if needed, using the same technique.

[Patron]

THe most awesome charge I have ever seen was when I had a prince's unit of valourous swiss armoured pikemen, 5 ranks deep. I began charging about 150 metres from the target, which was a unit of rebel hobilars. By the time they reached the hobilars the 4th rank had caught up with the 3rd rank and added his pike to the charging formation of elite pikemen. The went STRAIGHT through the entire unit of hobilars and out the other end without slowing down, leaving a nice formation of dead hobilars in their wake.

[dgfred]

I use the run-through method too . Of course sometimes it is by
accident . But the part about chasing routers all over the
map is a good one.

[Mr White]

I've yet to have a chance to test this next bit but I hope to use the same technique to get a cavalry unit, in wedge, to strike a unit in the flank, push through the unit and out the other side, breaking up their formation and disengaging without having to do a risky 180deg turn in the middle of the meleé. Once out in the open, they can reform and I repeat it in the opposite direction, if needed, using the same technique.

Hope it works. Let us know if it succeeds.

[Zild]

Surely the run-through loses the charge bonus, though?

I use run throughs with Royal Knights (especially the King's) against archers - since they tend to run away, they have their backs to you. And since you didn't official charge them, the unit continues to barge through them, as opposed to attacking. It seems to work especially well with a single row (ideally with the full 20/21 men) - I think this is because the men on the edges continue at full pace, and the ones in the middle struggle harder to catch up.

I almost always use this tactic on the first turn of my Early English campaigns against the French in Normandy - typically, the RKs will wipe out around 25 archers, breaking them instantly (the rest are quickly captured), with only one or two losses to the RKs,typically from missiles on whilst charging as opposed to the combat itself.

[CBR]

Ahh the swipe tsk tsk

Yes it works best in a 1-2 rank line. The secret is the banner. As long as the soldier with the banner doesnt face an enemy you can get the swipe effect.


CBR

[Zild]

Ahh the swipe tsk tsk

Yes it works best in a 1-2 rank line. The secret is the banner. As long as the soldier with the banner doesnt face an enemy you can get the swipe effect.

Oh, really? That's interesting...

Following on from that, regarding banners:

I've occasionally had battles where my King has been tied up in the middle of a unit of spears and I've tried to withdraw him in order to make a subsequent charge, but he's been pinned down and unable to get out.

Then, as I've moved the camera around, I've found that the banner has switched to another man (one far away from the fight)! This is crazy at the best of times, but when it's my general - or worse, my King! - it could be pretty bloody crucial!

Anybody experienced similar things? Any thoughts?

[CBR]

Well if the banner guys gets killed someone else will take it and it doesnt have to be close to the original banner AFAIK.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

I don't think the distance between the ranks will have an effect on the combat - I can't see CA going into that kind of detail. I think it's just there for the appearance of realism. (I hope so, otherwise the micromanagement of it sounds like too much hassle!)

Actually they did go to that much detail, and LongJohn answered this question once*. You only get the rank bonus when the animation shows the spearmen/pikemen fighting in synchronization. I try to keep the spearmen/pikemen units in good order and mostly use them in a defensive posture. By default spearmen/pikemen are in hold formation, and you have to put them in engage-at-will to get anything at all out of a charge which further disrupts their formation. If your spear/pike outnumbers the enemy unit by 2:1 or more, you might be able to use engage-at-will to advantage. However, if your spear/pike is sufficiently outclassed, I think it's better to stay in hold formation and bring up another unit in support.


*Reference:

longjohn2
10-22-2002, 23:49
I'm not aware of any problems with pike rank bonuses. However, the rank bonus is not nearly as simple as "this unit is nominally in 5 ranks so it gets 4 ranks worth of bonus". In order for a fighting man to get a bonus, it is necessary for the men supporting him to be closed up behind him, facing the same direction etc. As a fight progresses, these conditions are met less and less frequently, and the pike unit gets less and less bonues. Look at whether or not the back rank guys are doing their fighting anim to tell if they're counting or not. One thing I've noticed that really screws up a pike unit, is making a turn just before contact, as it disrupts the whole formation. Try to make sure they charge straight.

I've made a couple of adjustments to pikes in the patch, to give them more pushing back power, and to give them an advantage against spears, on the grounds that they have longer weapons, and historically replaced them.

[EatYerGreens]

Ahh the swipe tsk tsk

Yes it works best in a 1-2 rank line. The secret is the banner. As long as the soldier with the banner doesnt face an enemy you can get the swipe effect.

CBR

CBR, just out of interest, what does 'swipe' (or was it 'swipe card'??) mean in the context of multiplayer?

I wasn't in the conversation but watched this scroll by and got the feeling it had something to do with a cheat or exploit people use. Is it the same thing?

[Grey_Fox]

It's the same thing, but it is viewed as a bug and a cheat amongst the older players and clans (by older I mean long-term). Unfortunately it is now prolific amongst the new players and new clans in MTW.

[CBR]

CBR, just out of interest, what does 'swipe' (or was it 'swipe card'??) mean in the context of multiplayer?

I wasn't in the conversation but watched this scroll by and got the feeling it had something to do with a cheat or exploit people use. Is it the same thing?

Swipe was a bug that got introduced in MTW 1.1 and got fixed in VI 2.01. It took a while before players starting realizing precisely how to exploit it and it gave cavalry immense power.

Swipe had a few good things actually as cavalry was much better at killing off enemy pavs but overall it was annoying and made for some very random cav v cav fights as one unit might be totally devastated just because the enemy came in just at the right angle.

Swipe was the golden days of cav in thin 1 rank lines heh. It was only after the VI patch that the standard of 10k came into being as 15k had been the standard before and even still was a standard after VI came out (even with VI increasing morale by 2 for all units) You simply had to have highly pumped up infantry to deal with powerful cavalry.

Swipe was not the only thing that was removed in VI 2.01 as the automatic charge when running was removed too (I actually think it was the main way CA fixed swipe) Before that it was easy to make large scale attacks with your whole army as all you needed was to select the units and doubleclick/drag behind the enemy line and make them run. With VI 2.01 you have to select each unit and click on an enemy unit to get the charge bonus.


CBR

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks Grey Fox and CBR.

Seems my idea wasn't so original after all. Though I didn't picture it as a single line of cav and the message further back about chasing archers isn't the same thing either. Not sure what that was about. And banners? That went over my head too.

I was on about a straightforward cav wedge into the side of an already engaged, squarish shaped block of inf, but not explicitly engaging it, just running to a destination on its far side, by running through.

I see in the notes to VI on the CD that it says they fixed "certain occasions where cav get perpetual charge bonus", so I suppose what I'm proposing is exactly that. I didn't know about it at the time, is all I can say in my defence. I thought it would be a safer mover than charge, meleé, disengage, turn around, pull away, turn around, charge again... which is a lot of clicking to do and diverts attention for rather more time than I'm comfortable with.

I prefer 'move to position' because, for as long as I've retained overall cohesion, I tend to think in terms of "I want my men to be here, here and here" and, if enemies are in the way, then my units engage automatically and I don't have to think about it, or even look at what's going on.

However, when it turns chaotic I do switch to attacking 'targets of opportunity' wherever I see them.... but I don't always see everything and often find full-strength units sat idle, whilst others are in deep trouble but too far away to be rescued. The idle units are often ones I ordered to attack but ended up in a pursuit and they weren't fast enough to catch the enemy unit. That's how they end up on the edge of the map.

Frustrating normally but this actually kept me in a recent MP battle for a good 10 mins extra, with just 2 units left (CMAA/FMAA). Lots of marching to get to the final piece of action. Our side regrouped, attacked what was left - and lost - but it was a fun match and good to have lasted that long.

[Puzz3D]

One other important thing was removed from VI v2.01 multiplayer, and that was battlefield upgrades. On the unit icons, you still see the valor increase during the battle as though the units got upgraded, but, if you count the small flags, you'll see that the unit didn't actually get upgraded. We did tests to verify that the battlefield upgrades are definitely disabled in multiplayer. They are still present in single player and custom battle.

I thought it would be a safer mover than charge, meleé, disengage, turn around, pull away, turn around, charge again... which is a lot of clicking to do and diverts attention for rather more time than I'm comfortable with.

That's a technique used during the pre-melee skirmishing, especially with fast cav, when you are only controlling a few units. Once the main fighting starts, you really don't have time to micomanage to that degree, and if that cav unit routs when you try to pull it back, it could cost you the whole battle.

I prefer 'move to position' because, for as long as I've retained overall cohesion, I tend to think in terms of "I want my men to be here, here and here" and, if enemies are in the way, then my units engage automatically and I don't have to think about it, or even look at what's going on.

That's the right way to play except you usually don't want your units to charge forward automatically due to the way outnumbering penalties and flanking penalties work. Some unit types (undisciplined) will charge forward on their own and they get +4 morale when they do that, but it's not good when those units are on a flank which is supposed to be holding rather than attacking.

However, when it turns chaotic I do switch to attacking 'targets of opportunity' wherever I see them.... but I don't always see everything and often find full-strength units sat idle, whilst others are in deep trouble but too far away to be rescued.

This is what makes MTW or STW difficult. You have to manage all your units individually during the fighting, and they have to be well placed relative to the enemy units before the fighting starts. I think people who say RTW is harder are missing that, unlike in RTW, in MTW and STW you need excellent individual unit control during the height of the battle. It's very hard to achieve a level of control where you have no idle units, but the top players do achieve that level of unit management.

Frustrating normally but this actually kept me in a recent MP battle for a good 10 mins extra, with just 2 units left (CMAA/FMAA). Lots of marching to get to the final piece of action. Our side regrouped, attacked what was left - and lost - but it was a fun match and good to have lasted that long.

This is an aspect of MTW that most RTW players would call boring. It's even more fun when you start winning games like that because you were able to minimize the fatigue of your surviving units and get them to the required place in time due to foresight of how the battle was likely to unfold. This is strategic thinking in a tactical game, and is what raises it to another level. You want the tactics to become second nature so that you can concentrate on strategic aspects. This is why removal of the battlefield upgrades was important and why the game should not be played with lots of money which allows bizarre upgrading of units. You can't get to a strategic level of thinking if you don't know what beats what tactically or how long a unit is lilely to hold.

[Patron]

Choosing what troops to invest in is part of the strategy, also whenever you decide not to slide and double click on a unit 2 very stupid things happen. The Swiss invested in spearmen and advanced to using pikes and the English invested in archers telling their peasants to practice with their bows and perfect the war bow, the player should have some sort of ability to do the same.

Either you hold formation and when the leader is stopped instantly every other soldier unexpectedly stops his charge in it's tracks, even if he is 1 metre away from the enemy unit at the most distant point from the leader. and spent the last 10 seconds charging at him.

When you deselect hold formation the charging units cross other each other's paths and slow down and sometihng don't even reach the unit they were charging at. Even if it is a mathematically perfect spearmen vs spearmen pm steppes, same ranks engagement they still bump into each other whilst charging.

The only way to charge properly is to slide. I think removing sliding ruined the strategy of the game and an important part of the realism. It is now more like a real time strategy game like warcraft 3, than something which is supposed to be modelled on history. I never saw anything wrong with sliding from the realistic point of view anyway, I often had problems with valourous men at arms when sliding into them with upgraded chivalric knights.

[Puzz3D]

ok never mind.

[Patron]

booo

[EatYerGreens]

Good post Puzz, I may come back to touching on points later but MP addiction has taken hold, so I want to keep this short.


Patron, I had to read that first para about 3 times and still couldn't work out what linked the second sentence to the first.

Moving "also... things happen" to just before "Either...." improved matters a lot.

I don't know what you mean by 'sliding' and can't imagine what gained it that name. Is it the same as what I was describing earlier?

The bit about the entire unit mimicking the unit leader's movements and actions at the point of contact is interesting and I can understand your annoyance.

I have seen odd things happening with wedges which prove this stoppage factor is present. The leader at the tip fighting against a full line on his own and ranks behind him playing no role other than taking his place when he gets killed. The whole point of wedge is that it should penetrate into a formation in square and the diagonal edges fight while the core of the unit gives rank-depth type support.

If wedge calcs regarded the triangular shape as being two flanks and a rear, then the unit is going to be dead meat against any counter attack. Something else must apply, to keep it alive, not to mention give it enhanced attack capability.

[Puzz3D]

I have seen odd things happening with wedges which prove this stoppage factor is present. The leader at the tip fighting against a full line on his own and ranks behind him playing no role other than taking his place when he gets killed. The whole point of wedge is that it should penetrate into a formation in square and the diagonal edges fight while the core of the unit gives rank-depth type support.

That will happen if the wedge is in hold formation. Use the wedge in engage-at-will and it will penetrate into the enemy formation. It's most effective for swords attacking spears because the spear's alignment will be broken up which removes some of the rank bonuses. However, the wedge is not the best formation for charging with cavalry. I think Patron has observed correctly that collisions between the horses inhibits the charge. You're better off with a wider front for charging cavaly so that more of them hit the target at the same time.

If wedge calcs regarded the triangular shape as being two flanks and a rear, then the unit is going to be dead meat against any counter attack. Something else must apply, to keep it alive, not to mention give it enhanced attack capability.

For morale flanking penalty purposes, the wedge is the same as a rectangle. Anything outside of the 90 degree arc to the front of the unit is a flank. However, for combat penalties, anything outside of the 90 degree arc for each individual man is a flank. So, a wedge does expose more individual men to attack on their flank. In addition to that, wedge moves 3 combat points from defend to attack, so the men are going to die faster. Use wedge sparingly when you know you have a good matchup and want to breakthrough as quickly as possible.