Do you really give a rats ass about Cindy Sheehan?

[Divinus Arma]

YEs no who



edit: crap this was supposed to be a poll. Mods?

[PanzerJaeger]

At one point she had some validity as a grieving soldier's mother and deserved our compassion and attention.

However, she has long since sold her soul to the devil.. erm, michael moore, and has become a left wing whore - and should be treated as nothing but that.

It has recently come out that her son did indeed believe in what he was doing and the rest of the family did aswell. I can think of few things worse than using your own son's death to push political causes that he adomently opposed to suck up to the radical left. Her far ranging opinions about a myriad of issues besides the Iraq war only add to her lack of legitimacy. (Where does she get off thinking she can lecture about the Israel/Palestine conflict?)

The *woman* has become nothing more than the radical left's latest mouthpeice - not to be confused with moore putting his proverbial peice in her proverbial mouth - and should not be taken seriously.

[Zalmoxis]

I don't trust her, because the son knew that if he wasn't quite up to the task, he'd die.

[Adrian II]

I don't trust her, because the son knew that if he wasn't quite up to the task, he'd die.

This is why I love these threads. They open up a wonderful world of new facts and insights.

So, Zalmoxis, the mother is not to be trusted because the son wasn't up to.. well, up to what exactly? Staying alive? Is it a soldier's task to stay alive at all costs? Is a soldier's death under fire evidence of his failure as a soldier?

If so, then I wonder why we continue to honour and commemorate all those American failures who died in the liberation of my country in 1945. They clearly weren't up to the task of staying alive. What a bunch of losers, eh?

[Zalmoxis]

If this war actually had good motives, like taking down a threat to millions of lives (I don't know, maybe Jews?) or the country being invaded had a significant military force, then I'd sit quietly, but that is not the case now, is it?

[Al Khalifah]

I (would have) voted for 'who?'. I haven't heard about this story. Anyone care to give any impartial heads-up ?

[Zalmoxis]

A Cindy Sheehan's son went into Iraq, and was killed, though he knew the risks,, and now his mother (Cindy) wants to speak ask the President why he let her son die, even though she had already met with the President. So far, she's camped outside the President's ranch for quite some time, (I believe her husband even filed for divorce), and she won't leave until she has spoken with the President, even though she already did, and even though her son knew the risks of going to fight a war based on questionable reasons. I'm off to bed, doctor's appointment tommorrow.

[Al Khalifah]

Surely she knew that if her son went off to war there was a chance he was going to be killed? I mean that's the idea of a war. I doubt she'd have had any qualms about her son killing other people while he was over there.

[Aenlic]

A Cindy Sheehan's son went into Iraq, and was killed, though he knew the risks,, and now his mother (Cindy) wants to speak ask the President why he let her son die, even though she had already met with the President. So far, she's camped outside the President's ranch for quite some time, (I believe her husband even filed for divorce), and she won't leave until she has spoken with the President, even though she already did, and even though her son knew the risks of going to fight a war based on questionable reasons. I'm off to bed, doctor's appointment tommorrow.

Well, so much for the impartial heads-up. Heh. I'm sure it'll do for Al Khalifah, though.

[Sjakihata]

No idea who she is, so I cant say that I care.

[Al Khalifah]

Wasn't the most impartial account of events I'll agree, but I can read between the lines easily enough. Sounds like another case of soldiers' relatives having a very rosey picture of what it means to be a soldier as part of an occupying force in another country.

I know that's not exactly the whole picture of what is going on in this instance, at least in the Western view of things, but to many Iraqi people, this is how events will be seen.

[Aenlic]

I think it's a shame that she's managed to become a foil for both sides of the issue, villified on one hand and raised up as some kind of modern anti-war saint on the other. There are other, more eloquent and more reasoned, proponents on both sides who will not be heard while the media focuses on the circus of the day.

[ichi]

Interesting piece by Georgie Ann Geyer

CINDY SHEEHAN STIRS UP A LONG OVERDUE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT

WASHINGTON -- She is a plain, rangy woman with a strangely beseeching nasal voice. She dresses like the Californian she is, in T-shirts and cut-off jeans. She has already seen George W. Bush once, and yet she's insisting upon seeing him again. She is no glamour girl, and yet she has a throng of admirers who have been nursing inside themselves, for the last two years and more, the secrets that she implicitly reveals.
But none of those contradictory realities about 48-year-old Cindy Sheehan, the Gold Star mother of the Iraq war, even begins to define the reasons for her sensational overnight appearance as the moral reminder of America's losses.

Part of the drama is the woman herself, a simple, quintessential mother -- a kind of Greek chorus of motherhood -- as she mourns the death of her 24-year-old son, Casey, killed 17 months ago in a burning Humvee in Sadr City.

Part of the increasingly successful political theater lies in the fact that she picked exactly the right staging. By placing her protest (against the war) and her demand (to bring the troops home immediately) outside the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch on these August dog days, she has underlined the plausible image of a lazy, out-of-touch commander in chief riding his bike while Baghdad burns.

But the biggest reason behind Cindy Sheehan's lightning effect on the country is that she has been saying -- with her actions, gestures and intonations, if not exactly in words -- what has been left deliberately unsaid in America until now:

That the war in Iraq is useless, and that all those Americans who died or were wounded there died and suffered in vain. That Iraq is not and never was a war that America needed to fight, but that it was an adventure on the part of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith and the rest. And that it still could end horribly. This is frankly unbearable to most Americans, even now.

It should come as no surprise that many other American mothers of boys and girls who have perished on the seething plains of Mesopotamia have not exactly been enamored of Cindy Sheehan's strange vigil. We can bear it to know that our loved ones were sacrificed for some worthy and lasting cause. But to die for nothing is too much. That may be the destiny of other, less lucky and less blessed peoples of the world, but not us Americans.

That, at least, is what we have thought throughout our history. This generation has forgetton -- until now, as Iraq begins to look more and more like a worse Indo-China -- that in our own lifetimes we already have lost 50,000 Americans in Vietnam -- for nothing.

The curious question is why it should have taken so long for a Cindy Sheehan to arise. The war, after all, has been grotesquely misanalyzed, mishandled and misfought from the beginning.

Moreover, it is clear from their actions and rhetoric that there has been little concern for the American soldier in Iraq on the part of the president, the vice president and the secretary of defense, not to speak of the now-disappearing neocons who looked upon Iraq as not a necessity, but as some great experiment in transforming the Middle East.

The reason I think it took so long for a Cindy Sheehan to arise, and for an anti-war movement to capture at least some of the headlines, lies in a dangerous series of disconnects in American society today. Our military is a volunteer force; this provides for top-level talent, but it inevitably means that the vast majority of Americans feel little direct connection with it. At worst, they forget about it, or even look upon its members as paid professional warriors who are not their concern.

It is my contention that a professionalized volunteer force like this, without the traditional indirect controls of citizens who share broadly in the defense of the country, allows the adventurers far greater latitude for their experiments.

Along with these trends, one sees revealed on many levels a disturbing deinstitutionalization going on in America that further feeds into the myriad ways Americans have managed to ignore this war.

It's obvious in the approximately 20,000 "private security forces" (21st-century mercenaries?) in Iraq, in the dozens of cities across the United States that have, on their own, adopted Kyoto treaty-style environmental controls, and in cities and towns which, in increasing numbers, are moving on their own to deal with the problems of illegal immigration.

From all this suddenly steps the figure of simplicity and clarity. No matter that she's plain Jane (and perhaps that's for the best). No matter that her family is against her actions and that her husband filed for divorce last week. No matter that a lot of movements have gratuitously signed on to her and that 1,500 vigils were recently held in one night in her name -- without her knowing who most of the people were.

The fact is, in a country increasingly dying for clarity about what its self-isolated president is really thinking, Cindy Sheehan has arisen as a kind of tribal truth-teller who reads the stones. The stones and sand particles of Iraq are finally beginning to reveal that this war has been waged for nothing.

The important thing about her, to me, is that she is an American exercising her right to free speech. She believes in what she is doing, and instead of sitting in front of a TV or computer she's doing what she feels is important.

But look how's she's been vilified in the conservative press, even Panzer stooped to calling her a whore and making a dumb joke about having a piece of micheal moore in her mouth.

The trend in this country is that if you wave a flag and nod your head then you are a good patriotic American. If you disagree with Bush and try to stand up for your beliefs then you are a radical whore.

Shame. I lived thru Vietnam and saw many of the same thnigs then. That war ripped our country apart and it seems to be happening all over again.

They've divided us once again, and so many buy into it so easily. Buy into the Us and Them, With Us or Against Us, left and right, right and wrong. In my humble opinion simple minds easily distracted from the real problems and set to bickering with their neighbors while the real problems go unchecked.

Maybe we should send Pat Robertson to assassinate her, get it all over with.

ichi

[Redleg]

Interesting piece by Georgie Ann Geyer




The important thing about her, to me, is that she is an American exercising her right to free speech. She believes in what she is doing, and instead of sitting in front of a TV or computer she's doing what she feels is important.

But look how's she's been vilified in the conservative press, even Panzer stooped to calling her a whore and making a dumb joke about having a piece of micheal moore in her mouth.

The trend in this country is that if you wave a flag and nod your head then you are a good patriotic American. If you disagree with Bush and try to stand up for your beliefs then you are a radical whore.

Shame. I lived thru Vietnam and saw many of the same thnigs then. That war ripped our country apart and it seems to be happening all over again.

They've divided us once again, and so many buy into it so easily. Buy into the Us and Them, With Us or Against Us, left and right, right and wrong. In my humble opinion simple minds easily distracted from the real problems and set to bickering with their neighbors while the real problems go unchecked.

Maybe we should send Pat Robertson to assassinate her, get it all over with.

ichi

And you lost your moral high ground in the last comment. Ah so sad - your point was actually good until that.

[_Martyr_]

Who needs a moral highground. He's dead right.

[dgfred]

No, she is a loon!

[yesdachi]

I doubt she'd have had any qualms about her son killing other people while he was over there.

Sure, I can see it now as she is camped outside Bushes ranch… Why did you force my son to kill! why, WHY!!

[Hurin_Rules]

Whatever you think of her personally, she has indeed energized the antiwar movement. Fewer and fewer people are afraid to criticize Bush or the war every day. On Iraq, it seems, the worm has turned.

A poll that came out yesterday showed bush's approval rating at 36%, his disapproval at 58%. (Can't find the link to it yet, but it was reported on CNN). In terms of American politics, this puts Bush in the toilet. I think LBJ's ratings at the height of Vietnam were something like 36%.

Sheehan just came along at the right time.

[econ21]

Do we have to discuss this issue in such a crude way? "Rat's ass", Michael Moore's "piece", "loon", "obnoxious" etc. I know virtually nothing about Cindy Sheehan but understand that we're talking about a mother who has lost her son before his time. Would posters talk this way in front of her? You should at least respect her grief or at least not gratuitously insult her. Whatever people think about the rights and wrongs of the Iraq War or appropriate methods of protesting it, it can be said in a more civilised manner than some are doing here.

[Redleg]

Who needs a moral highground. He's dead right.

And I agreed with him until the last comment - complaining about villainization and doing it yourself is well - hypocritical.

[Redleg]

Whatever you think of her personally, she has indeed energized the antiwar movement. Fewer and fewer people are afraid to criticize Bush or the war every day. On Iraq, it seems, the worm has turned.

A poll that came out yesterday showed bush's approval rating at 36%, his disapproval at 58%. (Can't find the link to it yet, but it was reported on CNN). In terms of American politics, this puts Bush in the toilet. I think LBJ's ratings at the height of Vietnam were something like 36%.

Sheehan just came along at the right time.

Here is a site that has compiled all of Bush's ratings on How well he is doing his job

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

And here is a site with the recent poll - not sure if it is completely valid though

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Bush_Job_Approval.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/...ush_popularity

Let us know if you find the link to the report that you are thinking of.

[Hurin_Rules]

Hi Redleg,

I've found that a better site is this one:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh.htm

It includes all the major polls. Note that it divides them up into two main categories: favorability and job approval. Favorability tends to be a bit higher than job approval-- favorability is just your general impression of the man, whereas job approval is your estimate of how well he is doing his job.

I am sorry I could not yet get that poll number with the 36% figure. I have been desperately searching for it for the last 24 hours, since CNN reported it. I believe it was an Associated Press Poll, but I'm not sure; their website has nothing on it. I'll post it here as soon as I can find it. I hope you can trust me that I'm not BSing on this-- I don't have all the details, but CNN most definitely reported this yesterday.

[JimBob]

She's a flash point in my opinion. Is she right? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Is she doing things perfectly? Not really. Has she awakened people and gotten things moving? Yes. Ever see Network ? "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" that's what she is.

[|OCS|Virus]

I'm sorry she lost her boy to this war, but I think America needs to stay untill the job is done, and once they have a leader in place and elections going then I think we should pull out.

Her boy died for a reason, and he had a choice to go to war, he gambled and lost, but lets not let this war be a total failure. I think that the president should just give her a half-hour humoring session then get on with his job. Although I am not a huge advocate of George Bush, I am not totaly disappointed in what he has done so far.

Anyways in short, yeah she lost her boy, so she should get to see the pres for a half-hour. What more do you want nobody likes loosing people in a war!

[Redleg]

Hi Redleg,

I've found that a better site is this one:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh.htm

It includes all the major polls. Note that it divides them up into two main categories: favorability and job approval. Favorability tends to be a bit higher than job approval-- favorability is just your general impression of the man, whereas job approval is your estimate of how well he is doing his job.

I am sorry I could not yet get that poll number with the 36% figure. I have been desperately searching for it for the last 24 hours, since CNN reported it. I believe it was an Associated Press Poll, but I'm not sure; their website has nothing on it. I'll post it here as soon as I can find it. I hope you can trust me that I'm not BSing on this-- I don't have all the details, but CNN most definitely reported this yesterday.

Are you thinking about the Handling of the War or his overall Approval Rating.

I have seen a poll and several stories of his approval rating for the War with Iraq being below 40%.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Has she awakened people and gotten things moving? Yes. Ever see Network ? "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" that's what she is.

If anything shes making the left look bad.

[_Martyr_]

It could be said that she makes the Left look bad, but take a look around this topic. She's managed to make the right look pretty ugly as well.

[yesdachi]

I think that the president should just give her a half-hour humoring session then get on with his job.

I thought about this too, but it makes me think that if she gets a ½ hour than everyone that looses someone will want a ½ hour with the P. I think maybe he should give a few minutes of “take it easy” speech, answer some questions and then get back to running the country.

If it were me, I would scold her for making such a ruckus about a decision that her SON made. Then maybe send her on a humanitarian mission to Iraq to see what her son was fighting and died for. No joke, I think people would be more appreciative of the sacrifice being made if they could see the difference we are making there. Out of sight, out of mind. It is easy to protest something that you don’t really see the details/effects of. It is George W’s last term; he should start doing some off the wall, unconventional stuff.

This is captain smiley ; he will be your guide today as you tour the Iraq countryside. On your left you will notice people who have recently received their freedom and over here on the right are blown up cars and behind them more people that are now free.

[Red Harvest]

No, nobody really cares. There is a right way to protest the war, and a wrong way. Hers is the wrong way. It is ignorant, obnoxious, and gives those of us who oppose the war a bad name.

I don't see how it is a "wrong way." It is her way. Doesn't matter if I agree with her, she is protesting and what she is doing is a legitimate protest. She's not burning flags. She's not blowing up buildings. She's not threatening folks by firing off weapons...

What she is doing VERY WELL is helping to dispell that myth of Dubya as a "compassionate conservative." His apparatus go after her with fangs bared might be successful in painting the image they want of her, but it is counterproductive in the long term.

[Hurin_Rules]

Are you thinking about the Handling of the War or his overall Approval Rating.

I have seen a poll and several stories of his approval rating for the War with Iraq being below 40%.

I may have confused things but I don't believe I did. On CNN they said that the drop was 6% from the last poll, and if you look at the AP poll on his approval rating, that was at 42% in the last poll. I'll get back here with a clarification as soon as I can find the data--pollingreport.com will definitely post the latest polls soon.