Weapon Reach?

[CBR]

Weapon length is only a factor for gaining rank bonuses. Spearmen have 2 supporting ranks and pikes 4 meaning that the front rank gets a bonus from the 2/4 ranks behind them. The supporting ranks give the following bonuses to the frontrank:

# supporting rank: bonus
1: +1 def
2: +1 att, +1 def
3: +1 def
4: +1 att, +1 def

So a spearman gets a total of +1 att and +2 def from the 2 ranks behind him and a pikeman +2 att and +4 def.

During a battle you can see how the supporting ranks are fighting too. In woods they lose the ability to have supporting ranks and when swordsmen use the Wedge formation they also lose it.

A spear is a lethal weapon and its really only for gameplay that swords have an advantage against spearmen. For a pike yes its possible to get in close and make life difficult for the pikemen but a standard spear of 8-9 feet length is a versatile weapon.

The "push of the pike" is not to be taken literally. Some ECW reenactors are elevating their pikes so they can go in close and do that mythical pushing. I have never read how pikemen back then had a gentlemens agreements of elevating pikes to do such a thing nor why they didnt grab their swords to actually try and kill some enemies instead Pike fighting was considered an art and pikes was even an accepted weapon for duelling.


CBR

[EatYerGreens]

During a battle you can see how the supporting ranks are fighting too. In woods they lose the ability to have supporting ranks and when swordsmen use the Wedge formation they also lose it.

Interesting stuff about inner workings of rank bonus. Against wedge, are you certain it's a loss of rank bonus? I know that wedge gives +1 attack (over and above any charge bonus) albeit at the expense of reduced defence rating in the meleé which ensues. For the rank bonus to be lost by the receiving unit in addition to these boosts to attackers seems harsh. Then again, maybe players would not see any visible advantage to wedge without these changes and thus barely use it at all?

A spear is a lethal weapon and its really only for gameplay that swords have an advantage against spearmen. For a pike yes its possible to get in close and make life difficult for the pikemen but a standard spear of 8-9 feet length is a versatile weapon.

Gameplay: An important point, well made.
I originally pointed out that spear versus anything results in, at best, a positional standoff, with very slow casualty rates, assuming the spear's flanks are protected. Slow, action-free play does not good entertainment make.

When I referred to difficulty of access for the swordsmen, the front rank's spears being one man-width apart, which isn't too bad but the second rank is displaced a little, so frontman has spears on both sides of him too. If the incoming swordsman dodges the front spear succesfully, the two second-rank guys can converge theirs to get him before he reaches the guy in front. 2 vs. 1... deader.

Okay, CMAA type swords, it might be a different story entirely. If the armour is good enough to fend off spears (plate thickness and/or curvature), then they can just wade in and the spearmen are dead meat.

The "push of the pike" is not to be taken literally. Some ECW reenactors are elevating their pikes so they can go in close and do that mythical pushing. I have never read how pikemen back then had a gentlemens agreements of elevating pikes to do such a thing nor why they didnt grab their swords to actually try and kill some enemies instead Pike fighting was considered an art and pikes was even an accepted weapon for duelling.
CBR

I wasn't aware that this is how reconstructions were done, though it makes sense for the Health & Safety side of things. I have to wonder where they got this idea from, if it's as misconceived as you say.

I rather visualised 'push of pikes' to mean one unit against another, only the points are into faces, chests, legs etc. until one side realises it's losing men and then backs away only as fast enough as required to keep a safe distance from the pointy bits. Overall, it's more about taking and holding ground than killing in large numbers.

The hard part is that they're 10-15 feet long, with a diameter rather like a boat oar, weigh a fair bit, can bend and flex somewhat, under their own weight and need both hands to manipulate properly. Therefore, no shields and you'd have to drop it completely to switch to sword combat. A chest-plate might help but encumberance is already an issue just based on the weapon itself. I suspect many went without protection and just depended on the guys either side of them.

[CBR]

Wedge was modified in MTW 1.1 patch and beyond, so it have that extra bonus versus spears. It still gives the +3 att and -3 defense as it always has.

Swords also has a special bonus versus spears which gives them +1 att but only against a spearmen who is getting rank support and only in the melee after a charge.

It might be harsh bonus but heavy spears are quite good in MTW: a chiv sgt will win most fights against a CMAA but lose most of them if the CMAA use wedge. It does give wedge a role now where as before it was not worth much IMO.


I really dont know why some reenactors are doing such things except that they take the term "push of the pike" literally and it suits their misconception of how soldiers back then were fighting.

The pikes used were not that heavy actually. around 3.5-4 kg IIRC (compared to the ancient Macedonian Sarissa of around 8 kg)

There were two pike fighting styles. The Swiss used an underarm style grabbing the pike at the middle to turn it into a long spear. I guess it better suited their individualistic style, as they really liked their good old halberd and only started changing the ratio of halberd/pike after having problems against dismounted MAA that used their lances. And the process still took several decades.

The other fighting style were used by the Landsknechts, but Im not sure who started using it and when, and later that became the standard for all pikemen. An overam style where a soldier would grab the pike butt with the right hand and thereby get to use the full length of the weapon.

Generally the first ranks were the most armoured men in the unit. Hm cant find any proper websites right now and too lazy to scan in some pics but a bit of info is here: http://www.arador.com/articles/pikemen.html


CBR

[dgfred]

Great information you guys. Thanks for your time and effort.