Alternate History: Michael's Crucible

[Geoffrey S]

I'm going for 1. 2 sounds way too risky, paticularly with the lack of experienced leaders in your army. 3 also isn't too good, as it would be slow going, and armies working in tandem often created more problems than not due to differing views of commanders.

[King Henry V]

I say go for 4. It would be excellent to open a second front, but wait until the Sultan attacks Syria before embarking. You need most of the Fatamid forces concentrated on the Syrian borders so that you can take them by suprise in the rear. Let the Sultan have heavy casualties in the beginning, it will make his conquest slower and yours easier. And remeber, the Sultan only accorded you Alexandria and Damietta if you could take them.

[Geoffrey S]

I'd usually say 4 too, but Michael and his companions seem too inexperienced to pull off such a complicated manoeuvre. Getting the ships organised, loading the troops, and actually getting to the target is a process in which much can go wrong; even more experienced commanders found it a trouble without extensive preperation. Following 1 means that Michael's inexperience is balanced by the Sultan's skills.
Remember, Michael isn't really cut out for the military side of things, and his company at present lacks men with extensive experience of waging war.

[DemonArchangel]

If I (the player) could take full control of the organization, it would be so much easier, so #4 in that case.

Unfortunately, there could be a lack of ships, and the Venetians are a rather untrustworthy bunch. Maybe plan #1 would work.

[SwordsMaster]

I'd take 4. You have to use your allies and with venetian support you should be able to destroy the Egyptian navy. In the worst scenario, if you cannot take the city, you can embark back and ship back to Palestine or wherever.

And besides, I'd rather be doing something instead of sitting by the seashore for 3 weeks...

[Kraxis]

Well... You do have your own Byzantine Navy on top of the Venetian ships. That should be enough to overpower the Egyptian Navy. I take it that the Byzantine and Egyptian navies were about equal at this time, so the Venetian ships are crucial.
While we are stronger it is not a critical mass. A reverse at sea could easily happen, but I expect that experienced naval commanders are in charge of either fleet, so there should be enough capable advises when the time comes for naval warfare.

On the other hand, it is extremely complex to organize this, but we have three weeks to do it. It should be enough to make it happen, with perhaps the Sultan coming by in time for you to explain the plan. He will most likely agree to it (in the hopes that you will tie up any reinforcements, he is after all still going to trap the Fatimid army in the Levant).

It carries on the instance of rather easy victory at sea, or else you risk losing a lot of troops in needless fashion.
I still say #4, but only because we are there to guide it. Had it been Alexius or Andronicus alone I would never have gone for it.

[SwordsMaster]

Actually, It just occurred to me: Embark on your ships and head over to Gaza. Land and push the egyptian army towards the advancing Turks. That way you are the one controlling the access of egyptian reinforcements into PAlestine and have the route into the egyptian heartlands open. Then let the Sultan deal with the Egyptians and make haste to Alexandria and Damietta.

How about that?

[Kraxis]

Could work... But remember that the army in the Levant is merely 'local', and not the entire Fatimid force. We risk that the other forces attack us in the back while engaged with the army in Palestine.
That is the reason why I think Arslan will agree to #4, then he won't have to think about that part of the army hitting him in the back (because we are dealing with it).

[King Henry V]

P.S Vykke, this is an excellent Alternate History, I'm hooked. Better than damned soaps!

[SwordsMaster]

Could work... But remember that the army in the Levant is merely 'local', and not the entire Fatimid force. We risk that the other forces attack us in the back while engaged with the army in Palestine.
That is the reason why I think Arslan will agree to #4, then he won't have to think about that part of the army hitting him in the back (because we are dealing with it).

Exactly, but that army being local will not stand against our army so we will skirmish and make them retreat and fortify ourselves against the forces coming from Egypt. And because goofing it from Egypt is significantly slower than sailing we will have enough time to prepare, choose and fortify the position before they arrive. In the meantime the Sultan or your own advanced forces will be able to either crush or keep pushing away the palestinian army. We only need to push them away until they are closer to the Sultan than they are to us.

What just occurred to me: send a message to Ducas and tell him to be prepared in case the Turks are not "delayed" but heading into the empire.

[King Henry V]

What just occurred to me: send a message to Ducas and tell him to be prepared in case the Turks are not "delayed" but heading into the empire.

Good idea, SwordsMaster. I don't trust those foreigners.....

[AntiochusIII]

Well, considering that we do have Venetian ships and a mighty Byzantine navy at our disposal, I'd risk the naval offensive. While we wait for Arslan, the precious time should not be lost sitting around doing nothing. The troops hate that, and morale will plummet before the real war starts. The Fatimids may be strong at sea, but Byzantium is stronger. I believe the navy must have some really experienced admirals in charge, considering the Byzantine naval history. A setback should not be destructive, with Venice backing you up, while a victory would make the war much easier.

The Sultans, as Kraxis suggested, should not be troubled by Byzantium's efforts to take the "promised gifts." In fact, he may want you to do exactly this, just to pin down the Fatimid forces in Egypt. Hence the promise of two most important ports in Egypt.

Choice 4.

Choice 1 would give up a crucial momentum, and reduce your troops' morale as they have nothing to do. Why would they march so far from home just to take a vacation at the Syrian seaside for three whole weeks?

Choice 2, the Blitz, would've worked with a larger force, and more experienced commanders, but Arslan may as well turn his army into your heartland for that, knowing your hands tied with the Fatimids.

Choice 3 has the same problem with choice 1, and the Sultan may as well refuse to agree with you, causing much trouble for the campaign.

Oh yes, and do make sure that the army at home is vigilant for any kind of intrusion on a battle-ready state. Send messages to both Manuel/John Ducas at Constantinople and Botaniates at the Eastern frontier to keep vigilant eyes for invaders. Botaniates may be a little disappointed with you not calling him (he probably take pride at being considered the most experienced Roman general of the time) but with a message along the line of "as you're our most experienced general I trust you the defense of Asia Minor in case the Turks stab our back. Call the Alans if it so happens" he'd be more agreeable.

[Azi Tohak]

I suppose there is no point in arguing now. I think #4 sounds like an exciting adventure... but it also smells like the 5th crusade. Worked... sort of (but also hit Damietta, not Alexandria). But again, I am very worried Alp is going to stab into Anatolia. Wouldn't that just suck?

Botaniates might also consider using some of his money on those Saxons...? Hummm? I think they could prove useful and he has to have some serious cash. I think he is totally loyal and I don't like the idea of renegade Turcomans raiding while Michael is away with so many troops (wherever they came from).

Azi

[Vykke]

I take it that the Byzantine and Egyptian navies were about equal at this time, so the Venetian ships are crucial. While we are stronger it is not a critical mass. A reverse at sea could easily happen, but I expect that experienced naval commanders are in charge of either fleet, so there should be enough capable advises when the time comes for naval warfare.

That's a pretty good assessment of the situation at sea. Michael hasn't spent much time boning up on naval tactics, so he intends to take a relatively hands-off approach to that part of the conflict when possible. In the event #4 is chosen, the admirals will be making the plans for breaking through the Fatimid fleet. If #1 is chosen, they'll still engage the Fatimids, but in a more cautious fashion, with the intent to inflict attrition and disrupt their trade rather than hammering through their fleet.

Demonarchangel, you're the deciding vote here. You've got to pick one or the other.

[King Henry V]

Demonarchangel, you're the deciding vote here. You've got to pick one or the other.

Yes, it's up to you. Whatever you decide will be good, BUT 4 WILL BE THE BEST! I'm not putting you under any pressure here, but Vote Four!

[AntiochusIII]

I'm not putting you under any pressure here, but Vote Four!

I trust his judgement, that he'll see the wisdom of choice [censored - must..not..put..pressure]. After all, he's a crazed liberal warmonger!

[GoreBag]

Let's go with number 4. If those Turks turn out to be traitors...

[DemonArchangel]

4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kraxis]

Double post

[Kraxis]

4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are such a pushover...
It only took almost a page of arguments to win you over... BAH!

[DemonArchangel]

No, I haven't been reading the page for the last 48 hours. So I hit 4 when Vykke wanted me to decide.

[King Henry V]

Come on Vykke, we want more! It's been three days already since the last episode. We need an update!

[Vykke]

The Sultan's plan sounds eminently reasonable, if only he'd been ready to help execute it on time. As things stand now, you would end up having to force your men to sit idly by while you wait for as long as three weeks, or even more. Who knows what else might come up to delay your honorable ally. His and Alexius' plans are therefore right out. Andronicus' plan, however, has a good deal of appeal. It promises one or both ports and, potentially, a fast and decisive resolution to the war as you and Alp Arslan wage a two-prong assault on the enemy. It may also convince the Venetians that you're serious about upholding your end of the bargain - something you couldn't do if you don't manage to take Alexandria or Damietta before Arslan. Your decision brings that familiar smile to Andronicus' face you remember from childhood.

As soon as you are able, you turn your troops around and march them to Laodicea, sending an order ahead to Petros Sgouropoulos, your lead admiral, telling him what needs to be done. You keep your orders simple and vague, sticking to goals and time constraints, rather than actually telling him how to accomplish them. You don't consider yourself knowledgable enough of naval warfare to direct this sort of thing yourself; hopefully you can rely on your admirals to carry the day. You leave the Sultan's men at the meeting-place to inform him of your change of plans when he arrives.

You and your army wait outside Laodicea for several days for the fleet to gather. The city is the largest port in Syria and you find it interesting to watch goods flow south or north or back out into the sea as merchant ships resupply and than cast off again or pick up new cargoes just arrived from Antioch. Sometimes you wish you had more time to deal with the true lifeblood of a country, economics, but other circumstances always seem to be more pressing.

Other elements of the fleet are already skirmishing with the Egyptians and trying to chase them from the Nile Delta without success. Still, the number of ships that have been summoned here into a single fleet is impressive. The merchant shipping you were watching attentively just two days ago has now been almost completely replaced with martial vessels docking for resupply. A plethora of galleys rests at anchor just outside the harbor, ranging in size from the relatively light Ousiako to the mighty Dromons. The Venetians, too, rely primarily on galleys, although most of theirs are converted merchant vessels rather than dedicated warships. Nonetheless, their reputation for seamanship is peerless.

As soon as Sgouropoulos arrives, you meet with him in the harbormaster's building. The admiral is not in very good spirits, and he wastes little time in explaining why. The Venetians do not like the plan he has made for inserting your troops into Alexandria, and they do not consider his authority to extend to them, so he finds himself unable to compel them to do so. Perhaps, however, if you support him, they will fall in line and carry out their part in the plan. You don't feel comfortable lending your authourity to something without knowing what it is, though, so you ask him to explain his plan and what the Venetians want, all the while feeling your earlier commitment to keep your fingers out of the navy flying out the window.

"The reasonable thing to do in these circumstances, your majesty, would be to remove the Fatimid naval threat in the area before we do anything else. We either force them to commit to a battle that we'll win because of our numbers, or we chase them away or hole them up somewhere. Regardless, we want them contained or out of the picture before we load our ships with men and transport them over."

"And what do the Venetians want, good admiral?"

Sgouropoulos rolls his eyes. "They are eager to take the prize, Imperator. Too much so for me. They would prefer we load an army onto our ships before we have established a landing-place, and force our way through the Fatimid ships with soldiers already on board many of them to make a landing. They place more importance on time than on prudence and safety."

Andronicus pipes up. "How long would it take to open Alexandria to begin the invasion, according to your plan?"

"Hard to say for certain. It depends on how soon they commit to fight or flee, and how well their ships account for themselves in battle."

"Please, we need some sort of estimate," your brother urges.

"A week, perhaps. Probably no more than two. And then several days more to ferry men, horses, and equipment from here to Alexandria."

"I like the Venetians' strategy better," Andronicus declares. "We should arrive before they know our goal. How many men would we be able to bring with us under our initial assault?"

Sgouropoulos grudgingly considers. "I'm not clear on the carrying capabilities of some of the Venetian ships. Perhaps eight to ten thousand. The rest of the army could come over once the smoke dissipates."

"That's not really enough. I want at least fifteen thousand there. We don't want to go to the trouble to land in Egypt just to play defensively," Andronicus insists. "What if we replaced the marines on our ships with soldiers temporarily? We could take more over then in our war-galleys."

"Soldiers aren't the same as marines, sir."

"I know that," Andronicus snaps. "But what if we did? And we could increase the cargo space devoted to soldiers and equipment. We could scavenge for food and supplies for a little while, until more ships arrived."

"We could probably get as high as you say. Maybe even twenty thousand if we really push our carrying capacity and sacrifice most of the food exta equipment we were going to bring. But I don't like it."

Andronicus is about to retort, but you cut him off. "Enough bickering. I've heard enough. Please retire to the next room. I will consider and come to a decision immediately."

The two of them do as you bid, leaving you to choose who has the right of things.

1. Support Sgouropoulos' plan. You don't want to risk unnecessary losses on both your navy and army if ships get scuttled or captured in a rushed landing.

2. Order Sgouropoulos to follow to Venetians' plan. Load up merchant vessels and the reserve ships with men and attack with the laden ships in the rear, while the unburdened ships do the fighting. If all goes well, you would have Alexandria within days.

3. Order them to load up all the ships with soldiers, including replacing the marines with soldiers until after the landing, when the ships will return to Laodicea to pick up their comrades. You must also choose whether or not to sacrifice provisions for the sake of more men.
a. Keep the original, more conventional ratio of soldiers to supplies.
b. Increase the number of soldiers carried at the expense of supplies. Your men might have to plunder for food at first, but it's worth it for the extra manpower in the early stages of the offensive.

[AntiochusIII]

Welcome back, Vykke. How's your weekend?

Anyway, it is clear that the admiral knows what he's doing. We cannot just waste our forces away in haste. That we even commit to this plan in the first place is enough of a statement that we want Alexandria and Damietta (and therefore the Venetian trade privileges.) Naval backlash could be harsh on a transport fleet. Who are the Venetians to care? And how experienced or skilled militarily is Andronicus? Not satisfactory. He's just acting with, I presume, glee that you agreed with him at first. Clear the sea of the Fatimids, and march in. Any setbacks at this stage will not be serious, and the plan could be abandoned without too much losses. And if we really can't take the citadels once we landed? Just sail back through a safe sea.

Choice 1.

[AggonyDuck]

Yup, choice one is the safest. Entering hostile territory without secure supply lines is in my opinion suicide...

[Kraxis]

Yes, it has to be #1...

The Fatimid navy is currently not being bullied away. It intends to fight you. Doing the fight either half- or fully burdened is not a good way of winning a battle.
Besides this will only pre-emt the Sultan a little, so your coordination will work wonders

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I agree with the admiral. And given that Arslan will take almost a month to attack the Fatimids, it would not be wise to attack so soon. It will probably give the enemy enough time to concentrate its force on one foe at a time.

[DemonArchangel]

Choice 1, our supply lines need securing.

[Azi Tohak]

Geesh. Lots of cooperation amongst us here isn't there?

Choice 1.

Move quickly when the moment demands (like the Turk raiders on the trip to see Alp), but I always prefer caution.

Azi

[King Henry V]

Choice one is by far the wisest. A reverse at sea could be fatal if you bring your troops with you at the same time, with the army being captured or sunk. Andronicus's plan also sounds risky, all the Egyptians would need to do is carry out a scorched earth policy and the expidition would fail. And anyway, you need to wait a bit to allow the Sultan to commit his troops, thus dividing the enemy forces. A hard campaing fro you and an easy one for the Sultan is not what is wanted.