Castle Upgrade/Tech Question.

**Varangian Berserker** · 08-26-2005, 08:36

I'm new to MTW so I'm wondering, If I upgrade my fort/castle/etc. to the next tech lvl w/o buying the defense upgrades of the previous lvl (for example: Not buying the motte/motte and bailey upgradges before upgrading your fort to a keep) do I lose the ability to buy those upgrades, or can I still get them?

On a related note, when buying the new artillery pieces for castle towers, are the old pieces still there or are they torn down to make room for the new ones?

**EatYerGreens** · 08-26-2005, 09:57

I've a feeling that you get the intermediate upgrades bundled with the next major upgrade, so I doubt you'll end up missing any structures.

Having said that, you don't get any corresponding price reduction on the next level of castle build, if you did build the intermediates.

Convoluted way of saying that you save time and money by not bothering with them. But read on...

I'd suggest that you build your first keep without doing the intermediates, since this lets you build the swordsmith and other keep-dependent buildings and upgrades a couple of years earlier.

At other locations where money is not a problem and there's no particular urgency in progressing the local tech level, it is worth spending 200 florins and 2 extra years on motte, motte/bailey in several locations as it will help give your faction leader the 'builder' V&V, which boosts province happiness empire-wide. Later on, individual govenors will get builder virtue as well, for a further, local, boost.
Total number of constructions seems to count towards gaining this, rather than amount of money spent.

When the king eventually dies, you lose the builder happiness boost and his successor lacks the virtue, so it can pay to postpone some cheap/quick constructions and then have a sudden burst of building just after he has come to the throne.

In terms of tactical battles, the maps are changed by the builds.
+motte gives your archers an elevated area and, now they have line of sight to a target outside, they can fire over the stockade without difficulty. Without it, sometimes they don't fire when you tell them too.
+bailey adds an extra enclosure to the wooden stockade of the base level fort. Attacker has to capture both enclosures to win and it takes meticulous catapult placement to be able to breach both enclosures with just one unit. (Don't bother with the gate(s), just smash the walls).

Keep + curtain wall is useful - again a second enclosure - only a 2 year build and you have that extra protection during the 10 years it will take to complete the next castle up.

I can't answer about ballistas etc retained after you add cannons. Common sense says its replacement, not both of them together but you never know...

HTH

**Budwise** · 08-26-2005, 10:04

Because the CPU almost never assaults a fortification, I don't really see the point. I mean, I can see why you would want to build the enhancements if let say, your empire is close to falling and that very enhancement could me the difference in your last faction leader living or dying. BUt personally, I would just build something else you need more like Spearsmith or Swordsmith.

**Zild** · 08-26-2005, 11:31

Funny... AI's been assaulting me a lot recently (2.01) - perhaps it's just my playing style?

**EatYerGreens** · 08-26-2005, 13:19

The AI never seems to fancy its chances, in field battles or sieges. I seldom get it attacking me (when I'd rather it didn't) unless it has at least 2:1 advantage, usually more like Sun Tzu-esque 3:1.

To get it to attack you, you have to deliberately under-garrison.

Personally, I'd love to do some siege defence battles. You get to chew up a lot of their men without lifting a finger.

**Ayachuco** · 08-26-2005, 13:36

Funny, I have the quite the opposite reaction because when I ungarrison they stand there until I'm about 10 meters away. Give em cannons and they will assault including the cannon unit (how stupid) but they always attack the gatehouse so its fun to see foot knights defend of an entire army.

**yesdachi** · 08-26-2005, 13:38

Might just be me but it seem when I build the upgrades the AI leaves me alone more often.

**Zild** · 08-26-2005, 18:44

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

To get it to attack you, you have to deliberately under-garrison.

Personally, I'd love to do some siege defence battles. You get to chew up a lot of their men without lifting a finger.

Yeah, I typically fight snowball's-chance-in-hell defences before retreating - I take out a fair number of theirs, and then whatever troops run away can hold the castle for years :D

True, being VI the castles tend not to chew so many attackers up (not enough layers to break through), but I think it's still the best choice.

**Vladimir** · 08-26-2005, 20:24

Normally I get a good kill ratio when defending a castle, err, mote and bailey. I never have had a stone structure attacked. When I do attack them I love throwing my mercs up front to absorb the arrows. When the AI attacks me they always break thru in at least 2 places and always win. I've never really played with borders long enough where I couldn't counterattack shortly after having my castle sieged.

Oh, and nice sig Draconian.