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  1. #1
    Boy's Guard Senior Member LeftEyeNine's Avatar
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    Default Power causes corruption ?

    As long as there is an endless conflict between US and others, I asked myself "Would it be the same if it wasn't US, say, was Myanmar or Sweden or Turkey?".

    Do you think vast power somehow harms the subject itself or would it be different if the super power was another country ?

    You may take the question in psycological terms not only in terms of relationship among countries..

  2. #2
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    The USA is possibly the first superpower to adopt a policy of liberating other countries and using its power for (in their perception) the good. Other super powers in America's position might try conquering territory to form an Empire.
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    USSR 'liberated' many nations as well
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    Boy's Guard Senior Member LeftEyeNine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    The USA is possibly the first superpower to adopt a policy of liberating other countries and using its power for (in their perception) the good. Other super powers in America's position might try conquering territory to form an Empire.
    Sorry to sound against US but.. There must be a difference between "liberating" and "tearing into pieces".. US has a policy to create 300 diiferent states that consist the Middle East. "Scatter and Manage" is their policy in Middle East. Chaos and conflicting minor factions are what US aims in order to take control in Middle East..

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Arguably Britain didn't do much better with it's "unite and annoy" policy in the Middle East. Uniting the 3 Willayats into Iraq was perhaps not such a great idea.
    Last edited by Al Khalifah; 08-26-2005 at 17:06.
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    Boy's Guard Senior Member LeftEyeNine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Can you explain the formation of Iraq by Britain historically then ? I do not know..

    As to turn back to topic, "unite and annoy" is no different than "scatter and manage" thing. They are ideas both breeded from superpowers. So does that prove our hypothesis ?

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    Sorry to sound against US but.. There must be a difference between "liberating" and "tearing into pieces".. US has a policy to create 300 diiferent states that consist the Middle East. "Scatter and Manage" is their policy in Middle East. Chaos and conflicting minor factions are what US aims in order to take control in Middle East..
    Now that is funny - a policy to create 300 different states - where in the hell did you pull that little tidbit of fiction from.

    Looks like anti-american propaganda - smells like fear mongering in the Middle-East against the United States.

    Oh yea - the conspricacy theories must be rampent and believed by the un-educated masses.

    Oh by the way - I am in a foul mood when I hear garbage like that. Now does the United States have some conflicting policies and statements concerning the Middle-East, sure. But come on do you honestly believe that garbage about 300 different states to be created.
    Last edited by Redleg; 08-26-2005 at 15:54.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    Sorry to sound against US but.. There must be a difference between "liberating" and "tearing into pieces".. US has a policy to create 300 diiferent states that consist the Middle East. "Scatter and Manage" is their policy in Middle East. Chaos and conflicting minor factions are what US aims in order to take control in Middle East..
    I heard it was 301
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    Boy's Guard Senior Member LeftEyeNine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    It was actually 30, I exaggerated it.. Funny guys..

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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    its true that power corrupts, but if Sweden on the other hand had US power, we would all live in small red houses in the country, be married to blond women and drink beer every day. We would also sing "Små Grodorna" and jump around the midsommar-cross.

    ..... ok but seriusly I dont think any Empire has ever managed to "stay good", they all do the same; "liberating" countries and so on.
    Must say I prefer the US to the USSR... but as years go by, i grow more and more critical to how the US act in the world arena.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    Sorry to sound against US but.. There must be a difference between "liberating" and "tearing into pieces".. US has a policy to create 300 diiferent states that consist the Middle East. "Scatter and Manage" is their policy in Middle East. Chaos and conflicting minor factions are what US aims in order to take control in Middle East..
    You are pretty far off base. Arguably the worst mistakes we have made come from not recognizing early enough when nations should be allowed to go their own way.

    The U.S. did not create the nations of today. Empires of the past did that and we (the world) are still picking up the pieces. In many cases, groups were combined that seem none too happy about being forced together. And absent the U.S., the USSR would run all of Europe, while the Chinese would have Korea, Taiwan, etc.

    A guiding principle of U.S. international policy for the past 100 years or so has been "self determination" rather than empire or colonialism. That doesn't mean we've always honored the principle as we should have. Certainly the Cold War got in the way of that...

    "Self determination" presents some big problems though: If a country develops dictatorial or single party rule through election...then future "self determination" can become impossible, creating a dilemna. It also presents problems where there major and hostile divisions in ethnicity within a nation, but not in any readily separable regions.

    The U.S. has repeatedly tried to be more isolationist, but it usually backfires on us in a big way. So you'll have to understand and perhaps forgive us for attempting to be more pro-active as a result. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    "Self determination" presents some big problems though: If a country develops dictatorial or single party rule through election...then future "self determination" can become impossible, creating a dilemna.
    On occassion though, the US will prop-up a dictatorial regime because it is in the best interests of the United States rather than the people of that nation, which is the typical behaviour of an empire rather than a world policeman.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    As long as there is an endless conflict between US and others, I asked myself "Would it be the same if it wasn't US, say, was Myanmar or Sweden or Turkey?".

    Do you think vast power somehow harms the subject itself or would it be different if the super power was another country ?

    You may take the question in psycological terms not only in terms of relationship among countries..
    Now to answer your question - there is an old adage that states:

    Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is especially true of individuals. All one has to do is look at individuals throughout history. Just using the last 100 years you can see lots of evidence of that. Hilter, Stalin, Pol Pot, Clinton, Nixon, and yes even Bush.

    Corruption and abuse comes from gaining power and wanting more.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  14. #14
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    As long as there is an endless conflict between US and others, I asked myself "Would it be the same if it wasn't US, say, was Myanmar or Sweden or Turkey?".

    Do you think vast power somehow harms the subject itself or would it be different if the super power was another country ?

    You may take the question in psycological terms not only in terms of relationship among countries..
    'Would it be the same?' I take it that by 'it' you mean the use and abuse of power by a single superpower, and the conflict that that creates between that sole superpower and the rest of the world.

    Well, a large part would be the same. The simple status of the 'worlds only superpower' explains a lot of America's behaviour. The top dog allways abuses his power. Redleg already aptly quoted 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

    Reversly, he will allways be hated by those lower in the pecking order just for being on top. Remember how people spoke of 'perfid Albion' when Britannia ruled. And look at worldwide reactions whenever a disaster or war strikes - if America intervenes, it gets acused of abusing it's power. If it doesn't intervene, it gets thrown abuse at it for that.


    But yes, it would be different if it was another country. You cannot discuss America's power, and the way in which America wields it without taking the nature of America itself into account.

    It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't US, but, say, Myanmar or Sweden or Turkey. Frankly, with the exception of one, options like those remind me why I actually don't lose any sleep over America having the power it has.
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Aenlic,

    Is that it? Do you have any evidence of GWB and Moon even talking? Yea, good buddies my a..

    I didnt think you were telling the truth.



    Now I'm a liar? Wow. Is the weather nice on your planet?
    Can you back up what you said? /"Good buddies"/ If not, figure out what that makes you.

  16. #16
    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Can you back up what you said? /"Good buddies"/ If not, figure out what that makes you.
    PJ, you really need to chill. Are you not familiar with the concept of euphemisms and figures of speech? Or is this due to language translation and we're dealing with idiomatic problems?

    If I said that the Bush family and the Saudi royal family were in bed together, most people would understand the point. You, on the other hand, would apparently insist on proof of an orgy and want pictures for proof or you would reject the premise of the entire statment. And that is rather sad, if you do indeed understand the concept of figures of speech.
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    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Americans and other peoples of Northern European cultural heritage, compared with peoples from many other heritages, are innately more reliable and less corrupt in their dealings with fellow citizens. It is a feature of the culture. This does not mean, however, that there is not corruption, and it does not mean that it will never change (just look at what happened to Roman culture over time).
    Where did you get this? Westerners are as corruptable as anyone else. We have a culture that is all about stuff.
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    One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
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  18. #18
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Here's what I think of power. It'm on signature, but since I'm not allowed to have it shown in my posts I'll just copy and paste it.

    1. Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied. - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

    and more importantly:

    2. The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us. - Michel Foucault (1926 - 1984)



    so you see to the wise man power is a burden. But then again power is a total illusion. Much like the rest of our made concepts. Maybe even you and I don't really exist. Why does it matter, why do I care, why am posting?

  19. #19
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBob
    Where did you get this? Westerners are as corruptable as anyone else. We have a culture that is all about stuff.
    Yeh. You should take a look on the descendant of the europeans here on the South.
    Born On The Flames

  20. #20
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power causes corruption ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBob
    Where did you get this? Westerners are as corruptible as anyone else. We have a culture that is all about stuff.
    I got it from living it. Go, live and work in a country such as Mexico for a year, and THEN come and try to tell me that there are no cultural or attitude issues that are holding these societies back from being all they can be.

    The simple fact is that things function SO much more smoothly on a day-to-day basis in the US and developed European countries that it's not even funny.

    A good example-- go to Mexico. Rent an apartment. At the end of the lease, try and get your deposit back. Just go ahead and TRY. It won't happen. Ever.

    The only way to get your deposit back in Mexico is to deduct it from what you pay for your last month's rent. And tell the landlord to go to hell if he complains.

    Similarly, the only way to get a landlord to fix anything or to keep your apartment in a state of liveability is to with-hold rent. If you pay your rent every month, he will never fix anything. If you don't pay him, one of two things will happen-- if he's reasonable, he'll realize his error and come and fix the problem. If he's an obstinate character, he will try to find other ways to make your life difficult.

    ..

    I'm not saying that there is no corruption in Western countries, but until you see the other side of things, you don't really realize how comparitively clean most things are here.

    Honesty and efficiency are values which are uncommon outside of the developed, Western world.

    DA

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