Best MOD for MTW: VI

[Del Arroyo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again-- I never tried the other mods, but Wes' MedMod is awesome.

Quite frankly when I was choosing which mod to try, I looked around, and all I could find on XL or BKB was "This mod is COOL! Hundreds of new units! Thousands of new campaign maps! Big, big, BIG! Heck yeah! Woo hoo!"-- or the equivalent, in a little blurb that wasn't very descriptive.

When I checked out Wes' MedMod, I found a website, and fairly extensive documentation explaining many of the changes made-- and reading it, much of his reasoning made sense to me. So I downloaded it. I LOVED it. It really makes the game worth playing.

Honestly, though I have not done the in-depth research myself, most of what Toranaga-sama is saying confirms my gut feelings based on quick observations.

DA

[Graphic]

Could someone draw up a list of completed MTW mods? It's really hard to figure out what's done and what's not by scouring through hundreds of replies in the mod threads.

[Zarax]

I'm probably going to be flamed for that but nevertheless someone might agree, this is more a general opinion towards modding than a praise for some modder's work (which would feel biased by the fans of the others).

While most big mods are quite admirable and enjoyable efforts, I think that the game structure somewhat penalizes the modder effort of adding variation by adding things.

While MTW is extremely MODable, the number of variables and their range are quite limited.
This poses a roof to the number of units you can add before the differences between them starts to be minimal in game terms and they start to feel like the vanilla crusader knights: minimal variations of a design used to give more aestetic choice.

On these basis, judging a MOD by the number of units it adds is not really the best way of evaluation (unless it is a total conversion), even though praise must be given to those who have spent days and months in the slow and painful work of building new unit animations and debugging all the extra lines of code required for them.

There are some things that contributes more to the fun value imho, like balance, the offer of one or more different ways of playing the game and so an extra challenge to fit your strategy with whatever unit roster you have available.
Also, additional praise goes to those that reworked the game in a way that gives the AI a chance by creating a less complex environment for them without using cheap tricks like giving 500k flourins.

That said, I have a tendency to like smaller efforts aimed towards improving the playability and faction specialization rather than focusing on adding loads of new stuff.

Coming from AOK, I tend to think that smaller, specialized rosters can be better than bigger but more generic ones like those we have in vanilla MTW, where all european factions have the same roster plus one or two extra, "national" units.

Trying to end this blurb, I will say a final tip: something that adds new stuff is cool, but something that gives you a new challenge will last longer.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think people should see past new maps and units say for the my mod and the XL mod and will see that extensive rebalancing has been done with many other improvements. Sometimes i hear people saying my mods just adds units and maps but if people actually play the mod you will see so much more has been done with, imo a great challenge for the player and if you can't see that, i can't really be bothered to tell.

A lot of times I've heard you refer to the 'unit' thing, and indeed I've got a pretty good idea you're talking about my mod. And I'll be honest, its beginning to piss me off. Its pretty insulting that you're belittling my mod and possible the XL mod just to get a boost for yours. And before you deny it its pretty clear that that's what you're doing. I mean what else can this statement be interpreted as?

"Trying to end this blurb, I will say a final tip: something that adds new stuff is cool, but something that gives you a new challenge will last longer."

I have spent many, many hours on my mod with hardly any help and i think i have made a great mod, simple as that.

I think when someone says "This mod is the best but I haven't played any others", you may as well give a mod a download and see some other guys work because there are some damn good pieces of modding work out there , hardly any have mentioned the fall of rome mod which i think is one the best mods for medieval.

I hate threads like this because people just can't say "I like this one because...." They have to feel the need to add "Oh and this one isn't very good because...." If it was a worse mod thread then fine, but it isn't. Mithrandir predicted this earlier on and still no one heeded his words.

[ToranagaSama]

@Zarax, well said.

@ Bohemia, who are you talking to? Your references appear to be aimed toward someone in specific.

FYI, simply from reading your descriptive, I think your mod to be very interesting.

I think people should see past new maps and units say for the my mod and the XL mod and will see that extensive rebalancing has been done with many other improvements. Sometimes i hear people saying my mods just adds units and maps but if people actually play the mod you will see so much more has been done with, imo a great challenge for the player and if you can't see that, i can't really be bothered to tell.

Question, if one can't be bothered to tell, then why should one be bothered to try out one's mod? I take it you're just a bit frustrated and didn't really mean that. I can dig it.

JFYI, one of the reasons I was taken by the MedMod was that WesW provided specific information as to what he was trying to accomplish and the manner in which he was was approaching the challenge.

He also, from the very beginning provided, extremely detailed and incredibly extensive information (frankly, it was difficult to wade through) regarding everything concerning his mod. It was impressive, before even trying the mod.

[Unfortunately, to my knowledge both BKB and XL do not provide this information. Please, if you can, it would be nice.]

Previously to trying the MedMod, I had experience with Total Annihilation and its mods. Specifically, BSR's BAI/Bloodthirsty AI and Unit modification of TA. An incredibly extensive and comprehensive mod. From that experience, I knew rather particularly what *I* was looking for in a mod; and, what was necessary to bring a suitable challenge from Vanilla for me.

Anyone who even attempts a mod, let alone completes one is to be commended.

---

BTW, did you ever create the ReadMe? If so, posting the link to it, on the first page of the thread would be good. IMO, the description doesn't really tell enough.

Also, the .exe installer, for some might make it easier, but for others, such as myself is a bit prohibitive. No better way to spread a virus than by use and execution of an .exe.

It would be nice to simply have access to the files, along with instruction as to where they should be placed.

---

I hate threads like this because people just can't say "I like this one because...." They have to feel the need to add "Oh and this one isn't very good because...." If it was a worse mod thread then fine, but it isn't. Mithrandir predicted this earlier on and still no one heeded his words.

I would read the above as a desire for people NOT to be completely honest. Is it that you would prefer people to simple state the Pros w/o the corresponding Cons; and for there to be no *debate* at all.

What would be the purpose in that?

Take the MedMod for example, just from reading this thread, one would know more about it, both Pro and Con, than w/o the discussion and contention. Contention is a GOOD thing. It is rather human.

Now, if the purpose is to NOT ruffle the feathers of the Modders, then I still disagree. If you can't stand the heat, then don't come into the kitchen. That's life.

I think a thread like this s/b governed by a requirement of honest evaluation, along with supporting information for any claims or allegations, upon challenge.

---

In the future, it *might* be helpful if when a poster is asking for the *best* mod, or the like, that the poster be required/requested to define his/her criteria for *best*. As is obvious, not everyone has the same criteria.

Would this be more acceptable?

No way in H could anyone play all the mods, and not all mods are comparative.

IMVHO, the Org and Moderation should require its members to be as *articulate* as possible. Much negative contention is the result of inarticulation, imo. Example:

Poster: What's the Best mod?

Moderator: Please provide a criteria defining "Best", or the thread will have to be closed.

This steers the thread toward construtive discussion(/critisims) and positive contention. It sets a parameter(s) for *fact* based opinion.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

TS, i wasn't refering to your posts.

People moaned when they had to add the mod manually so i thought i would make things easy for for them with the auto install

[bretwalda]

I can completely understand BKB: he spent many hours tweaking the best mod he could think of I am sure. I think he is entitled to require that people criticize positively, politely and with improvement in mind. I am telling that without trying his mod or knowing what he did because from the extent of the mod I am sure that was many hours of work - for free, for us...
anyway my 0,02 forints...

Have good games, neat fun y'all!

[Ludens]

Could someone draw up a list of completed MTW mods? It's really hard to figure out what's done and what's not by scouring through hundreds of replies in the mod threads.

Is any mod ever completed? There is a tendency for modmakers to keep on improving their mods until everyone has stopped playing the game.

The most important mods for M:TW a pretty much all listed in the stickies of the Engineer's Guild. Most of them are still in various stages of completion, but I think the only one that van be considered finished is Napoleonic Total War, and that is because the Lordz have switched to R:TW.

The most popular mods are:
-BKB's Supermedieval, a history-orientated Mod;
-Medieval XL, a gameplay-focussed mod with improved AI;
-WesW's MedMod. TS has already defended this one more eloguently than I could, so I will just say that this is a gameplay-orientated mod that strongly adds to the challenge by improving the AI. The newest edition (v4) has moved more towards history, but is still in the beta-phase. There is also a smaller version of the mod (v2.14) that acts as a sort of "balance patch" to improve AI.

There are also a number of Total Conversions:
-Napoleonic Total War
-Middle Earth Total War
-Samurai Wars
-Hellenic Total War
-Two Crowns
-Fall of Rome
I have not played these myself, but I have heard many good things about Samurai Wars (a recreation of S:TW) and Hellenic Total War.

[Pericles]

I personally don't feel that there is a single "Best" mod.

There are many mods that add something unique to the game in their own way.

It is a pity that my hard drive isn't big enough; otherwise I would have a separate fresh install for many of current mods.

Modding is tough, grinding work; all of the modders should be commended and encouraged for their tireless and endless work.... After all, they don't get paid for their work, and all of their efforts are aimed at giving us more gameplay...

It is thanks to their efforts that we have a game that literally will never cease to be stale or uninteresting...

All of the mods should be tried by players out there. There will be some mods that may not be right for them, while other mods may be exactly what they are looking for...

Currently, I am playing the HTW mod and I am having a blast. It isn't perfect, but I have not had a single CTD, and since I am an ancient warfare buff, I am thoroughly enjoying myself...

I do plan to try all the mods over time... so I have a lot to look forward to...

Thanks to all the modders and their efforts I have a game that will last a long, long time...

Cheers!

[Zarax]

Just another small tip: never ask if a mod is complete, rather look for stable versions.

When you talk about modding, a complete work is often also a fading or dead one, as live projects tends to be ever evolving, something you can see with most big MTW mods listed here.

One of my secret wishes is that our most skilled MODDers would try to join for a single project, showing once for all what the community can ackieve.

Best of all would be having CA releasing the source code to the community, that would allow us to improve and add truly new features to MTW almost with no limits.

Of course this isn't going to happen because a community improved MTW would put even RTW in shame ;-)

[Graphic]

Is any mod ever completed? There is a tendency for modmakers to keep on improving their mods until everyone has stopped playing the game.

Well I mean downloadable and playable. Thanks for the list.

[Zarax]

Woah, calm down guys... Flaming won't bring you anywhere...

[Budwise]

amritochates, I agree with you.

Today, I am going to do something that I normally would never do, swear.

ITS A ******* GAME. Yes, I love this game and I have spent a great deal of time and money (Don't believe me, read all those GFX card threads.) trying to get it run right and play well.

OF COURSE THE ALMOS NEVER CONQUERED EUROPE. Theoritically, no country could take over Europe. Within History, many have tried and all have in the end, failed. The closest one got was Rome and even then, AFTER MANY MANY YEARS, they still didn't have Britain and other parts of Europe. Well, this isn't my point and I am straying so let me get back to my point.

Just because a game can simulate "Real World Physics", I wouldn't use them for my final exam at MIT. Even knowing this game is as close as I ever have seen for big battle simulations, watching your men all stand around when only four are fighting is quite bizarre. See the picture for what I mean.



We can all bicker and complain that this is better than that, and this would suck if someone put it in a mod and their stupid. But all in all, its the little extra things that we do or not do that makes the game fun. If you don't enjoy a mod, THEN DON'T PLAY IT AND *****. If you don't like MEDMOD, they don't waist the space on your Hard Drive and me reading about you complaining about it here by flamming others.

Edited language
Mithrandir

[edyzmedieval]

Byzantium Total War.

Anyone willing to help on our mod?!

[Mithrandir]

Last chance to keep this thread open.

If you judge a post Use the following format :

I like Mod X because :
-
-
-

resulting in reply like:

"if you like that aspect, you should try "mod Y" because :

-
-
-

Any more flames will not be tolerated.
Any bad language will not be tolerated.
Warnings will be issued to anyone breaking the 2 simple rules just above.

[Shahed]

Thank you for the appropriate warning Mith.

I would like to apologize to everyone and make my intentions clearer, as the thread starter I have some responsibility to bear.

My question really was inappropriate. I wanted to know what the most complete "best" (read: good, playable etc) mods are there to play. By complete I meant an overhaul of the game from strategic to battle level. As we all know there are some mods exclusively for MP, which I was not that intersted in at this time because I wanted to play single player.

I offer my apologies to all the modding community and the org as a whole. The title of this thread is misleading and I am deeply sorry for any misunderstandings caused.

Please do carry on discussing the mods but without any attacks as this is not the purpose of the whole discussion.

All the best ! and CONGRATULATIONS to all the modders for keeping this game alive and all your outstanding hard work !

Salute !

[ToranagaSama]

@budwise

Just because a game can simulate "Real World Physics", I wouldn't use them for my final exam at MIT. Even knowing this game is as close as I ever have seen for big battle simulations, watching your men all stand around when only four are fighting is quite bizarre. See the picture for what I mean.

Just curious, why do you find it bizzare?

[kalifah of watton]

The only mod ive played is the BKB which is fantastic.I will eventually try XL etc when i get an internet connection.Anyway i keep reading that you cant play GA on BKB,not true for me as i have sucessfully completed two GA games(Almohads Super High and Sicilians Super Early)In the almohads game which i won i was offered the conquest victory at 60% but went on to win on GA.I tried the seljuks on GA but game kept crashing at 1321.My guess is that you can play GA on the original factions from MTW/VI but conquest only on the brand new factions.Could the Blind King or anyone else comment on this?

The Kalifah Of Watton

[EatYerGreens]

I don't feel at all well placed to post in this thread, since I haven't even completed a campaign as each and every playable faction in the unmodded game and I don't think it would be possible to properly appraise the changes a mod brings until I have done so. Maybe even a couple of goes at each, given the potential for variability within the game (ie events not always panning out the same way twice when AI fights other AI, changing the opportunities for the player).

Nevertheless, I do have a question and didn't know whether this would be the best place for it, or bretwalda's Region Discount Ideas thread, or a whole thread of it's own.

So, has anyone done a mod whereby the farm improvements are castle-level-dependent, in exactly the way the MTW tech tree is laid out but which doesn't seem to have been implemented in the original game itself?

Similarly, the tech tree indicates a Shogun-like aspect, whereby the Mine Comlplex structures would seem to require the level four castle (Citadel) to be built first.

I can see benefits, in that aggressive factions won't get out of hand quite as rapidly (such as the Byz in Early) with this limitation placed on them.

I also see disbenefits, whereby the sea-trader types would steal a huge march on the landlocked ones and ruin the overall balance.

Some of my thinking about this was inspired by the Repository thread about getting the AI to develop provinces better and it strikes me that a requirement to save funds for (expensive) castle construction before (much cheaper) land improvements can be put in place would change the way in which AI factions behave - in the Early era, at least. More advanced troops may get built as a pleasant side-effect. (AI aims for better farm income but must meet the castle pre-requisite, cannot afford the castle just now but can afford the swordsmith, so it builds that and, if it's armies are still smaller than it would like, it starts training swordsmen).

If this change is tried and tested but it failed miserably, e.g. the AI underspent on early troop numbers to 'save up' for buildings and became a walkover for the 'rush' player, then please say so as this would make it clearly the wrong route to go down.

[Emerald Wolf]

I don't think the progression of farms and mines was intntedned to be linked to castle development as that would have no factual basis in history, other buildings would have necessitated this because farmland is eaiser to defend with smaller unites (especially if you don't want to damage crops with larege groups of soldiers marching about) than built up areas which could come under siege and be more of a handsome target for a large enemy force.

BTW best mod is Viking Hoardes XL mod, no contest. I did enjoy MedMod and Super Mod but VH got it as historically correct as any I've seen. Though for a different time period I still need to check out Italia, Napolean, and American Total Wars.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't think the progression of farms and mines was intntedned to be linked to castle development as that would have no factual basis in history,

That's correct but let me expand on my reasoning somewhat.

In the game, you increase your farms so as to get more revenue and bigger armies. In real life, you improved farms because you have a constantly growing population needing to be fed.

To my mind, the forts and castles represent the capital city of a region and the growth of the fortification reflects the growth of the city but also the population of the region as whole. So, first you have to increase the fort, then you increase the farms so as to support the expanded population.

I've not played a Viking campaign but I was fascinated to note that the first level of farm improvement was called 'forest clearing' and this is entirely appropriate for that era. Coincidentally, this came up in a documentary I watched today, where they pointed out that it took generations of effort to clear acres of mature forest (oaks, etc), using hand-axes, which can nowadays be done in hours, with the right machinery.

In a separate programme, I recently heard that the fabled 'Sherwood Forest' covered a huge swathe of central England, extending far to the north and south of its present-day remnant. So, it's reasonable to assume that in the era covered by the game, there is considerable woodland clearance still to be achieved. Indeed, you can draw on Elizabethan-era references to ancient woodland being hacked down to be turned into a navy fit to face the coming Armada.

One could regard the higher levels of output as representing this continuing process but also don't forget that some prime modern-day farming areas only exist because land drainage was employed to turn the Fens and the Somerset levels into useable land. I would guess that the windmill/water pump technology used for that was inspired by the techniques the Dutch developed, if not actually brought in by Dutch immigrants (William of Orange era), and thus way too late to fit with the MTW eras. Come to think of it, the poor output of Friesland in the game is probably a true reflection of how much of it was still under the North Sea, at the time.

I hope I'm not pushing this point too far but I'm arguing that the overall slow pace of land improvements means that Citadels should spring up before top-level farms. You need the increased manpower to progressively improve the lands and bigger capitals reflects this increased population.

Don't forget that the Normans built literally hundreds of motte & bailey forts, taking only a few months to finish each one and even substantial castles could go up in as little as 6 years (eg the ones in north Wales). I could even argue for reducing the build times on some of these structures.

Of course, historically, all this construction work would be done in parallel so, in that sense, you're perfectly right to say that fortifications per se should in no way be a reason to restrict farm improvements.However, the limitations of the game mean you must queue them one after another, which is something we just have to live with, at the moment.

I strongly suspect that the AI sequences the builds in order of cost. Thus I expect it to build 60% farms (1500) before it builds the castle (2000). Then, it will go off at a tangent and build all the building upgrades until the only items remaining are 80% farms (2500) and Citadel (8000), so 80% will come first. Basically, it's not going to arrive at citadels for well over a century into the game - even assuming it can afford the costs at every stage - if left to its own devices and there's many a player who has probably conquered the entire map in less time than that.

They would have had a relatively easy time of it too - small fortifications, short sieges, low level troop types. My suggestion is aimed at slowing down the player's progress with the economy and giving more time for the AI to develop, as well as redirecting AI priorities so that it gets stronger fortifications up sooner in the game, slowing the player's conquests even further and, with provinces secured all the better, it can sit back and boost its own economy and grow its armies but with better quality troops.

All in all, more historical in that no nation ever did get to conquer all of Europe in the middle ages. We can still try but there'll be less chance for 'rush' to succeed and no easy walkover battles either.

BTW best mod is Viking Hoardes XL mod, no contest.

If that's the one with the reduced trade income and more farms-based economies then that'll be the one I'd like to try first.

[EatYerGreens]

One of my secret wishes is that our most skilled MODDers would try to join for a single project, showing once for all what the community can ackieve.

Ah, but there's the rub! Why do so many mods already exist?

It's a contentious question but how many mods were not inspired solely by the need to alter the default game (i.e. the same starting gun but different times of arrival past the finishing post) but were, in fact, inspired by the desire to take a different approach than the one used by whoever it was whose mod was the first to become publically availabe?

Given the differences in approaches used, what's the likelihood of agreement ever being reached?

The old adage about the camel being "a horse designed by a committee" was always meant to be an insult to committees, not to camels. Basically concensus gives you no more than what can be agreed upon. Absence of freedom for radical vision drives you towards mediocrity and, issued with a specification for an animal with four legs, simple dietary requirements, capable of carrying one to two people and baggage over all types of terrain for hours at a stretch, the committee comes up with something which does the job but perhaps is none too elegant in its appearance.

Having said that, I think there is still room for the community to put their heads together, draw up a specification for what they feel they need in the game, find the common ground, then throw it open to those with modding skills to put those changes in place. They can then chuck it back to us for play-testing, so we can see if what we asked for was even the right thing. What seemed like good ideas might turn out not so great when put into practice.

Sounds great, in theory but already I can see how that's never going to work. There'll be so many suggestions and minority veiwpoints thrown in that no way can all of them be met and some will end up disgruntled at ideas being ignored. The caveat about committees will apply even more strongly too. Hmmm.

Best of all would be having CA releasing the source code to the community, that would allow us to improve and add truly new features to MTW almost with no limits.

Now, there's an idea!!!

Of course this isn't going to happen because a community improved MTW would put even RTW in shame ;-)

Who knows, maybe user-modifyable games are the way of the future?

The cynical, out there, might wish to remark that the average new game release already has a tendency to be bug-ridden, or the content is flawed in some way (historical accuracy, say) and that all games should have an opening (parameters in editable text files as opposed to anything requiring programming knowledge - decompiling and copyright issues notwithstanding) for changes to be made by the users themselves.

Then again, multiplayer is the growing trend and for that to work, everybody has to be on the same version for it to work, so user tinkering is out.

In the case of battle simulations, a certain amount of artistic licence is probably required so that every faction's troop mix has a roughly equal chance on the battlefield, such that command skill is what makes the difference between victory and defeat.