Iroques

[Kagemusha]

I have been always intrested in North American Natives.And my favourite Indian Nation has always been the Six Nations.I think Iroques confederacy was the most developed among North American Indian Nations and maybe it had largest impact in colonial history of North America.Im especially intrested of their type of warfare what was somewhat extraordinary among Indians,because they literally wiped out some of their neighbours.Also i think they had somewhat democratic tribal law.

[Gregoshi]

I visited Arizona back in June and spent some time in the Navajo nation. Since that visit, my interest in the North American indians has grown tremendously. I recently started reading a book called 500 Nations about the history of the NA indians. Yesterday I read a section on the Iroquois Confederacy. You are correct kagemusha, they did have a form of democratic government. IIRC, there were two tribes (Mohawk & Seneca I think) that were a kind of senior ruling council and two other tribes (don't recall their names) were a junior council. Then there was the Onondaga (spelling?) tribe that would settle ties in voting. The book suggests this arrangement may have been an influence on the Founding Fathers when they were forming the government for the fledgling USA. It is interesting stuff. When I was in school, it is now apparent that we didn't learn nearly enough about the NA indians. However, it is a pretty sad story in the end.

[Kagemusha]

Gregoshi can you give me the author´s name? I have an vague memory of such book i read long a go it was like an encarta of North American tribes and it had beutifull illustrations.In cover there was a drawn picture of great chief Pontiac of Algonguins.About the two Iroques Nations i think they were the Oneida and Cayga.If my memory serves me well.

[lars573]

Greg the Iroguois were a confederacy of 7 tribes. In fact Iroquois is a French version of their word for their confederacy. They tribes were Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and the Tuscarora. They all spoke a similar dialect and were only semi-nomadic. They grew corn in an area until the fields went fallow then moved somewhere else. They also had places they moved to hunt in winter. Their lands were originally from along the Saint Laurence river here in Canada through Ontario and down into the US mid west. Most of their lands fell into land claimed by the French and in 1690 they made good their claim. They embarked on a campaing to bring the Iroquois to heel. Which they did by 1695. But after making the Iroquois submit to their rule they left them alone more or less.

[Hurin_Rules]

Many of the Five Nations peoples also fought in the various wars between America and the natives and in the War of 1812. I grew up near many of these battle sites--Lundy's Lane, Queenston Heights, etc. I can tell you that the American troops were absolutely terrified by the natives. General Brock managed to take Fort Detroit even though he was outnumbered and had no chance in an assault simply by playing on these fears. Tecumseh was a Shawnee (not one of the Five Nations), but I believe many of the troops who fought for him were Five Nations. Tecumseh was a tremendous help to the British and Canadians in the War of 1812 and essentially fought to the death at the Battle of the Thames. With him died the hope of a sovereign Native Homeland in North America.

[Kagemusha]

It seems that Iroquois confederacy had a strict alliance with the British.And at the end it also resulted to their downfall.I did a litlle research today about them and i found some pretty intresting things.First thing i stumbled was a fact they were infact a Matriarchacy.Women were the heads of family units and they chose the chiefs among men,also when the Iroques married, the man was married into the woman´s family.What i found very disturbing that they favoured type of marriage where a young man would be married to older woman and vice versa.I also found out that the original tribes that founded the Iroquois confederacy at early 1600 was five nations:Seneca,Mohawk,Oneida,Onondaga and Cayga.At 1722 Tuscarora tribe joined the alliance also.Iroquois called themselves "Haudinashone"=People of long house.The name Iroquois was given them by their enemies it means "The true snakes".

[Aenlic]

You can find lots of information on the internet about the 7 nations if you spell it Hodenosaunee.

[Kagemusha]

Thanks Aenlic. Is this how you English speaking people spell it?Because i took my spelling from Finish written page.And what is the seventh Nation?

[Gregoshi]

kagemusha, 500 Nations, An Illustrated History of North American Indians is written by Alvin M. Josephy, Jr. I got it for a general overview of indian history and a stepping stone to indentifying specific parts of their history that I would find interesting. Then I could locate more detailed books covering those areas of interest. The other attractive thing about the book is that it was on the bargain shelf at a local bookstore.

Here's a link to the book at Amazon.com for more information on it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

[Aenlic]

Thanks Aenlic. Is this how you English speaking people spell it?Because i took my spelling from Finish written page.And what is the seventh Nation?

It's the Anglicized version of the word. I believe the word is originally an Onondaga word which as someone pointed out means "People Building a Long House" ; but the languages of the various tribes are really all just dialects of the same root language. As for the 7 nations, I meant 6. It's a typo that I missed. Ignore it. They were originally the 5 nations of the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas with the later addition of the Tuscarora.

There are some alternate spellings of Hodenosaunee. You'll see it sometimes spelled as Haudenosaunee and Hodeneshonee. But I'm reasonably certain that the main line spelling is Hodenosaunee or Haudenosaunee.

Some scholars have dated the advent of the 5 Nations to the 12th century, giving a date of 1142 as the year in which the Seneca were the last tribe to adopt the treaty. That would make the 5 Nations (and later the 6) the oldest existing democracy in the world, far outstripping the U.S. for the record.

[Kraxis]

Thanks Aenlic. Is this how you English speaking people spell it?Because i took my spelling from Finish written page.And what is the seventh Nation?

Heh... When I muttered that word to myself it actually did sound rather Finish.

[Kagemusha]

Thanks for the info Gregoshi. Kraxis did you think of word Sauna from Haudenosaunee?Btw Aenlic we Finns also "Finnosize" words.In my language you and Gregoshi would live in Yhdysvallat and Kraxis if i remember right is Danish so he lives in Tanska.

[Aenlic]

I don't know what kind of cable TV access you have in Helsinki, Kagemushua; but if you get the History Channel or History International, then the series 500 Nations based upon that book which Gregoshi mentioned is shown regularly. You might even be able to order it via the History Channel web site.

[Kagemusha]

I don't know what kind of cable TV access you have in Helsinki, Kagemushua; but if you get the History Channel or History International, then the series 500 Nations based upon that book which Gregoshi mentioned is shown regularly. You might even be able to order it via the History Channel web site.

I only have Discovery Chanel,but i think im going to get that book.

[yesdachi]

I am not aware of anything as interesting as the “counting coup” game that the plains tribes practiced but I found this site a while ago http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/ethnohistor...6.4keener.html its a bit dry but offers some interesting info.

[Kagemusha]

Thanks yesdachi. Great and very informative article.I never knew that Notheastern Indians could even have cannons and bastions to defend their towns.All in all i find these people very intresting,they are so controversial.Stone age people who lived in anarcho-democratic society where no one could be forced to do anything.Where women controlled the property of the family and choosed the chiefs among men.Also the style of warfare is very different from plains Indian nations brave but sportlike "coup" warfare.Iroquois warfare was morelike total war where the aim was the wiping out the enemy nation or force them to move out from their lands.Also these people were cannibals and showed almost unhuman cruelty to captured enemies by torturing them or burning them in the stake.The thing that is the most unbelievable to me is while tortured and killed some of their prisoners,they could also adopt them into their tribe and give him or her the name of some dead relative and the person could adapt the role of beiing one of the people that could have killed his or hers original relatives.peculiar people.

-kagemusha

[LeftEyeNine]

I'm not a Turko-Schizophrenic but have you ever heard about the claims about the NA Indians being the children of the Middle Asian Turkish immigrants who were scattered off their homelands, some passing the Bering Strait when it was frozen?

Their cultural values and religious beliefs were said to be alike the Middle Asian Turks.

I must repeat that this is something I am interested in. Learning something is my only purpose. I don't want to sound funny.

Any info ?

[Kraxis]

Hardly Turkish, but Asian that is for sure. They crossed the Berings strait some 15,000 years ago, long before there were a group called Turks. They might share some ancestry but beyond that it is too much for anyone to claim.

Kagemusha, no it wasn't sauna, it was how it sounds if you say it like this: Haudenosaunee... slowly trailing off as you say the word. It would thus sound peculiarly Finnish.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

They used some very good "scare the living hell out of the enemy" tactics. With all that hollering...

[LeftEyeNine]

Actually, this brought up another question for me regarding the first Turks ?

The Turkish history is said to be starting with the Huns. 'Cause there is no other evidence referring to an earlier time about Turkic tribes.

Is that true ? I mean the pre-Hun part ?

[Kraxis]

Well that is recorded history... We don't know how far back there was a super-tribal group that called themselves Turks. Just like we have confined the Danes to about 200 AD, but where did they come from? We can assume, hope, expect or believe all we want, but we will never know for sure.

[Redleg]

For those interested in more reading of Native Americans - I just finished reading an excellent book concerning the Plains Indians The Long Death: The Last Days of the Plains Indian by Ralph K. Andrist.

It talks about broken treaties - and has some of the accounts of the battles and campaigns that were fought.

It also has a pretty good chapter on Chief Red Cloud one of the few Native American Tribal leaders to defeat the United States Army.

[Aenlic]

It also has a pretty good chapter on Chief Red Cloud one of the few Native American Tribal leaders to defeat the United States Army.

Red Cloud is one of my personal heroes, despite my not having any native blood in me. He supposedly gave the following farewell speech to his people near the end of his life:

"My sun is set. My day is done. Darkness is stealing over me. Before I lie down to rise no more, I will speak to my people.

"Hear me, my friends, for it is not the time for me to tell you a lie. The Great Spirit made us, the Indians, and gave us this land we live in. He gave us the buffalo, the antelope, and the deer for food and clothing. We moved our hunting grounds from the Minnesota to the Platte and from the Mississippi to the great mountains. No one put bounds on us. We were free as the winds, and like the eagle, heard no man's commands.

"I was born a Lakota and I shall die a Lakota. Before the white man came to our country, the Lakotas were a free people. They made their own laws and governed themselves as it seemed good to them. The priests and ministers tell us that we lived wickedly when we lived before the white man came among us. Whose fault was this? We lived right as we were taught it was right. Shall we be punished for this? I am not sure that what these people tell me is true. As a child I was taught the Taku Wakan (Supernatural Powers) were powerful and could do strange things. This was taught me by the wise men and the shamans. They taught me that I could gain their favor by being kind to my people and brave before my enemies; by telling the truth and living straight; by fighting for my people and their hunting grounds.

"When the Lakotas believed these things they were happy and they died satisfied. What more than this can that which the white man offers us give?

"Taku Shanskan is familiar with my spirit and when I die I will go with him. Then I will be with my forefathers. If this is not in the heaven of the white man I shall be satisfied. Wi is my father. The Wakan Tanka of the white man has overcome him. But I shall remain true to him.

"Shadows are long and dark before me. I shall soon lie down to rise no more. While my spirit is with my body the smoke of my breath shall be towards the Sun for he knows all things and knows that I am still true to him."

[GoreBag]

Greg the Iroguois were a confederacy of 7 tribes. They tribes were Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and the Tuscarora.

That's only 6...

In any case, the Tuscarora were johnny-come-latelies.

[Redleg]

Red Cloud is one of my personal heroes, despite my not having any native blood in me. He supposedly gave the following farewell speech to his people near the end of his life:

Yep he was a great man and leader of his people. The book that I mentioned also has some on Chief Joseph - its really rather eye-opening, because gives the details of the flight of the Nez Pierce.