Iroques

[Kagemusha]

Thanks yesdachi. Great and very informative article.I never knew that Notheastern Indians could even have cannons and bastions to defend their towns.All in all i find these people very intresting,they are so controversial.Stone age people who lived in anarcho-democratic society where no one could be forced to do anything.Where women controlled the property of the family and choosed the chiefs among men.Also the style of warfare is very different from plains Indian nations brave but sportlike "coup" warfare.Iroquois warfare was morelike total war where the aim was the wiping out the enemy nation or force them to move out from their lands.Also these people were cannibals and showed almost unhuman cruelty to captured enemies by torturing them or burning them in the stake.The thing that is the most unbelievable to me is while tortured and killed some of their prisoners,they could also adopt them into their tribe and give him or her the name of some dead relative and the person could adapt the role of beiing one of the people that could have killed his or hers original relatives.peculiar people.

-kagemusha

[LeftEyeNine]

I'm not a Turko-Schizophrenic but have you ever heard about the claims about the NA Indians being the children of the Middle Asian Turkish immigrants who were scattered off their homelands, some passing the Bering Strait when it was frozen?

Their cultural values and religious beliefs were said to be alike the Middle Asian Turks.

I must repeat that this is something I am interested in. Learning something is my only purpose. I don't want to sound funny.

Any info ?

[Kraxis]

Hardly Turkish, but Asian that is for sure. They crossed the Berings strait some 15,000 years ago, long before there were a group called Turks. They might share some ancestry but beyond that it is too much for anyone to claim.

Kagemusha, no it wasn't sauna, it was how it sounds if you say it like this: Haudenosaunee... slowly trailing off as you say the word. It would thus sound peculiarly Finnish.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

They used some very good "scare the living hell out of the enemy" tactics. With all that hollering...

[LeftEyeNine]

Actually, this brought up another question for me regarding the first Turks ?

The Turkish history is said to be starting with the Huns. 'Cause there is no other evidence referring to an earlier time about Turkic tribes.

Is that true ? I mean the pre-Hun part ?

[Kraxis]

Well that is recorded history... We don't know how far back there was a super-tribal group that called themselves Turks. Just like we have confined the Danes to about 200 AD, but where did they come from? We can assume, hope, expect or believe all we want, but we will never know for sure.

[Redleg]

For those interested in more reading of Native Americans - I just finished reading an excellent book concerning the Plains Indians The Long Death: The Last Days of the Plains Indian by Ralph K. Andrist.

It talks about broken treaties - and has some of the accounts of the battles and campaigns that were fought.

It also has a pretty good chapter on Chief Red Cloud one of the few Native American Tribal leaders to defeat the United States Army.

[Aenlic]

It also has a pretty good chapter on Chief Red Cloud one of the few Native American Tribal leaders to defeat the United States Army.

Red Cloud is one of my personal heroes, despite my not having any native blood in me. He supposedly gave the following farewell speech to his people near the end of his life:

"My sun is set. My day is done. Darkness is stealing over me. Before I lie down to rise no more, I will speak to my people.

"Hear me, my friends, for it is not the time for me to tell you a lie. The Great Spirit made us, the Indians, and gave us this land we live in. He gave us the buffalo, the antelope, and the deer for food and clothing. We moved our hunting grounds from the Minnesota to the Platte and from the Mississippi to the great mountains. No one put bounds on us. We were free as the winds, and like the eagle, heard no man's commands.

"I was born a Lakota and I shall die a Lakota. Before the white man came to our country, the Lakotas were a free people. They made their own laws and governed themselves as it seemed good to them. The priests and ministers tell us that we lived wickedly when we lived before the white man came among us. Whose fault was this? We lived right as we were taught it was right. Shall we be punished for this? I am not sure that what these people tell me is true. As a child I was taught the Taku Wakan (Supernatural Powers) were powerful and could do strange things. This was taught me by the wise men and the shamans. They taught me that I could gain their favor by being kind to my people and brave before my enemies; by telling the truth and living straight; by fighting for my people and their hunting grounds.

"When the Lakotas believed these things they were happy and they died satisfied. What more than this can that which the white man offers us give?

"Taku Shanskan is familiar with my spirit and when I die I will go with him. Then I will be with my forefathers. If this is not in the heaven of the white man I shall be satisfied. Wi is my father. The Wakan Tanka of the white man has overcome him. But I shall remain true to him.

"Shadows are long and dark before me. I shall soon lie down to rise no more. While my spirit is with my body the smoke of my breath shall be towards the Sun for he knows all things and knows that I am still true to him."