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  1. #1
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble?

    Is this the end of the line for the Iraqi constitution? Things are looking pretty grim, and it seems the Sunnis have now decided to oppose it. The Sunni negotiator just appeared on Al Jazeera to urge Sunnis to vote against it:

    Sunni Says No Deal Reached on Constitution
    AP - 9 minutes ago

    BAGHDAD, Iraq - A top Sunni Arab negotiator said Saturday that no agreement has been reached on the draft constitution and called on Iraqis to reject it in an Oct. 15 referendum. A government spokesman indicated talks were hopelessly deadlocked and said "this is the end of the road. The Sunni negotiator, Saleh al-Mutlaq, made the statement on Al-Jazeera television after Sunnis studied compromise proposals offered by the Shiites on federalism and purges of former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

    http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
    See also:

    Iraq constitution talks deadlocked
    Sunni negotiator calls on Iraqis to reject document in Oct. 15 referendum

    Updated: 5:01 p.m. ET Aug. 26, 2005

    BAGHDAD - A top Sunni Arab negotiator said Saturday that no agreement has been reached on the draft constitution and called on Iraqis to reject it in an Oct. 15 referendum. A government spokesman indicated talks were hopelessly deadlocked and said “this is the end of the road.”

    The Sunni negotiator, Saleh al-Mutlaq, made the statement on Al-Jazeera television after Sunnis studied compromise proposals offered by the Shiites on federalism and purges of former members of Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party.
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    “The issue of division through federalism is on the table,” al-Mutlaq said. “The Iraqi people have to give their word now and reject the constitution because this constitution is the beginning of the division of the country and the beginning of creating disturbance in the country.”

    Asked about Shiite offers, he replied: “We are still far from what we need and what the people need.”

    A Shiite negotiator, Khaled al-Attiyah, said a “consensus” had been reached on the charter and an amended version would be sent to parliament Saturday. Asked about that, al-Mutlaq said simply: “Let them.”

    That suggested the Shiites and their Kurdish allies might be prepared to send the document to the assembly without Sunni concurrence.

    “This is the end of the road,” Government spokesman Laith Kubba told Al-Arabiya television. “In the end, we will put this constitution to the people to decide.”

    About 5,000 Sunnis, some carrying Saddam's picture, marched in the central city of Baqouba to protest the draft constitution.

    The Shiites submitted the compromise proposal after the personal intervention of President Bush, who face rising criticism from the U.S. public and his own party about the conduct of the Iraq war.

    Little help from Bush
    Bush's overture, made in a telephone call to a top Shiite leader, did little to calm the increasingly strident rhetoric. A process designed to bring Iraq's disparate communities together appeared to be tearing them apart.

    Parliament speaker Hajim al-Hassani canceled a planned news conference expected before midnight Friday as meetings with Sunni Arab negotiators were under way. Muhannad Jabbar, spokesman for the speaker, instructed a television crew to shut down for the night.

    Shiite negotiator Jawad al-Maliki reported progress in talks Friday with the Sunni Arabs and Kurds on federalism but problems on the Shiite proposal about the fate of Baath party members. Shiites had been complaining privately that the Sunnis were stalling.

    "We will not be easy with this point at all," al-Maliki said Friday. He said the Sunnis were being tough in defending the rights of former Baath party members and "it is regrettable to us that the Sunnis and the Baath are in the same pot."

    Strong divide
    Another Sunni representative complained the Shiites were ignoring them.

    "They are sending us letters as if we are living in two different countries," Saleh al-Mutlaq said.

    Iraq's Sunni Arab Vice President Ghazi al-Yawer said the draft, submitted to parliament last Monday over Sunni objections, was written by Shiites and Kurds but that the country needs a constitution "that keeps the unity of Iraqi soil and gives rights to all Iraqis."

    The United States hoped the constitution would curb the Sunni-dominated insurgency, and along with a better-trained and equipped Iraqi security force, enable the Americans and their international partners to begin bringing home their troops next year.

    With more than 1,800 U.S. deaths since the war began in 2003 and falling poll numbers, the White House wanted to show something positive from Iraq to counter the depressing litany of car bombings, assassinations and American battle deaths.

    As the haggling continued in Baghdad, U.S. warjets launched multiple airstrikes Friday against a suspected "terrorist safe house" in the western Anbar province, destroying the building where up to 50 militants were believed to be hiding, the U.S. military said.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9084376/
    Last edited by Hurin_Rules; 08-26-2005 at 22:42.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    Is this the end of the line for the Iraqi constitution?
    It depends on the ratification process. If its only required to have a majority of Iraqis support it, then no. The Shia themselves could pass it.

    However if it is being done like in the US, where every state(region) has to ratify it, then the sunni majority areas can block it.. then we have a problem.

    Im not worried though, money solves a lot of problems, especially political ones.

  3. #3
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    It depends on the ratification process. If its only required to have a majority of Iraqis support it, then no. The Shia themselves could pass it.

    However if it is being done like in the US, where every state(region) has to ratify it, then the sunni majority areas can block it.. then we have a problem.

    Im not worried though, money solves a lot of problems, especially political ones.
    If the majority of the voters reject it in at least three provinces, the constition must be discarded and the whole process of elections and drafting must begin anew.

    The Sunnis are the majority in four provinces.
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  4. #4
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    I still don't understand why the make seperate states... Hello Kurdland, Shiite land and Sunni land...

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  5. #5
    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    I recall something about if 3 provinces decline to pass it then it is not passed; but I can't locate the reference and don't remember where I heard it. Anyone have any specifics on how the ratification process itself was designed?

    I do know that the Sunnis have majority control in at least 3 provinces; which is why I'm concerned with the details.
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  6. #6
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    More than 100,000 Shias marched in Iraq today protesting AGAINST the constitution.
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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    Thats what you get for villlianizing the most secular group in iraq, as far as i know, kurds are far more "sunni" than sunnis.

    Let the iraqis wallow on Shia Sharia, and women are counted as half a vote.

    Even in the UAE, which is not a true democracy(or not a democracy at all), domestic, municipal and whatever elections are held, 1 woman are counted as one full vote.
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  8. #8
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    I still don't understand why the make seperate states... Hello Kurdland, Shiite land and Sunni land...
    Let me rename them for you:
    Kurdland becomes "the state that must be destroyed before our own Kurds gets ideas" on Turkish.
    Shiite land becomes "Extended Iran".
    And Sunni land becomes "we have no idea what will happen but they will lose the oil money and former previledges and will probably be pissed off about it".

    But yes in the internal politics it would be best to divide them up in three states.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  9. #9
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    It would be best to divide them. Divide and CONQUER

    Dividing Iraq could mean a catastrophe for the region, civil war in Iraq a la Bosnia but WITH American troops on the ground as a plus. Turkey would most certainly oppose this vehemently read "Turkish armor masses in Turkish Kurdistan." The Turk woudl never cede Kurdistan, not without very major political, and economic gain. "Greater Iran" would gain strength so considerably in this deal that "co-opting" into alliance rather than threatened with war may become a feasible route for any superpower.

    Every educated and highly intelligent neo-imperialist would glow with glee at the prospect of dividing Iraq. By dividing Iraq you divide the region and further you increase the divide between "with us or against us" possibly drawing much more moderates into the extreme right on both sides.
    Last edited by Shahed; 08-27-2005 at 11:33.
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  10. #10
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iraqi Constitution in Deep Trouble

    If the Sunnis won't support a fair constitution, then the Kurds and the Shiites need to go through with it without them.
    But that would be a very bad thing for peace...

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
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