Discussion - Reinvigorating MTW/VI

[gotikiller]

Hey guys, I have been hearing calls from all over the medieval total war community that medieval total war/vi is stagnant, and the old players are running away because of the lack of tactics and noobs in MTW. Frankly, I am tired of this, and believe that the reason for MTW/VI's decline is our own selves. Instead of being creative and imagenative, we are wasteing our breath and energy on a very frivolous persuit in my opinion. So, I, a person whom is intelligent, imagenative, as well as a fellow MTW/VI lover, have put some thought into our present qualms and decided to create a list of ways, you the MTW/VI player can help to reinvigorate our community.

I will divide this up into two sections one for modders and one for players(*Note I would love for a debate about my ideas to occur, and I will be happy to add to my list, & I am not saying modders are not players *)
(** Also note I include map makers under modders **)

1. The reason strategy has stagnanted is that people play the same maps over and over again, maps that are not very challenging to work with. When ever I play online (which I plan on doing when I get back from NYC, Plz be ready all because I can't wait ) I try to pick out scenarios that will challenge both players as well as to cause stagnant strategies. One thing that I have done in the past is played as the Mamluks in Late with Unlimited Money vs the Spanish in a desert climate, in a Mountains to Hills map (the Spaniards were in the mountain part of the map). (below I will post a few different scenarios which I can think of in the modders section).

2. The reason team games are so boring, is that team games today are for instance in a 3 vs 3 match, 6 seperate armies fighting, not 2 armies fighting each other. I think that the best way to rememdy this situation is A. to limit the amount of units in each army, this allows you to fight with better valour units, as well as allows you to be a wing/center of an army rather than a seperate army. I often hear people say ohh, you attacked before your partner joined up with you, which according to them is a basic of team games. It seems to me, they want to create 1 large army out of 3 forces (in a 3vs3), not 3 armies. The smaller amount of units will reflect that. When you have 16 units to Micromanage, sometimes you can loose track of what is going on with your allies. Also, to answer a question before it is asked, before many battles, one allie had to march to join another, causing the fact that you will have to march to one of your allies armies, and the tiredness that it inflicts on your troops to make the battle more realistic than anything else. My ideal small unit armies would be from 6-10 units rather than 16.

3. If you adopt the smaller unit structure, playing 2+ vs 2+ matches in Mountains and other extreme areas becomes more feasable, allowing more varied maps, & greater varied maps = greater varied strategies.

4. We need to start discussion on strategies with individual factions, and combinations of factions b/c with the smaller unit model specialization is more possible, since one does not have so many units to coordinate (since once you cause lets say your two armies in a 2 vs 2 to be a right and a left wing of one army instead of two armies, this opens up specialization, i.e. one player plays as the turks and provides archers, HA, and LC [troops that are light and can move fast to his ally w/out getting very tired], and the other player plays as lets say the Germans and specializes in heavy infantry and cavalry)

I have to leave in a few seconds so I will go on to the modders (family is coming in from Long Island . My language is going to be telegraphic

Modders:

1. VI units need to be edited, Swordsmen power down, Pikemen power up, make stronger when in hold position, as well as spearmen.

Gotta go will be back tonight or tomorrow night to finish up

[L'Impresario]

Might I guess that you 've been playing MTW (or VI for that matter) for after June-July 2004, if not quite more recently?;)

the old players are running away because of the lack of tactics and noobs in MTW.

No, the old players aren't running away, the old players are gone starting from Spring-Summer 2004 -I remember many good old players being away even before that- and now there are hardly any to run away. Not even 5% (not even 1% actually heh) of the people being in a clan in ,say, March 2004 are around now for the occasional game.The reasons you mention aren't the reason for the majority abandoning the game, although they hold some fragments of truth, maybe in a different way that you originally intended tho. A search on topics in MTW/VI a year and more ago in this particular forum will reveal a bit of what people thought around those times.


I 'll let somebody else to comment your post, I'll just say that 16 units are manageable for the average player, and possibly some people would easily manage 20 units, provided the speed isnt as fast as RTW's. The reason that team games seem like multiple 1v1s to you can be attributed only to the skills of the players you playing with , and subsequently with the lack of clans and competitive play - these have been talked to death as well as the next subject , that of modding the game, attempted many times but anythign from maps to new set of stats isn't appealing to the general TW public, this was the case from STW and still continues to be so, even more when nowdays VI/MTW mp players don't frequent such sites.
For a change I say you could download at least the mp mappack v1-3 and say to the people you play regurarly with to do the same;)

[Ghost of Rom]

IMHO this game is getting stale because...it's been out for a really long time. Any game (anything) will get old if you play it often enough.
16 units:
It takes some practise (and grouping) to handle so many units, but that is one of the reasons this game is so fun. It has a lot of depth and skill to it. Plus you can be thinking about tactics and units when your boss thinks you're working!

[edyzmedieval]

Plus you can be thinking about tactics and units when your boss thinks you're working!

But what if your boss is a member of this forum?!

[Vladimir]

Strange, I thought people would use multiplayer like a real army would. Someone controls the calvary, someone else the infantry, etc. Instead it's just a slugfest?

[Grey_Fox]

Both of those assumptions are wrong. A person chooses up to 16 units with the amount of money available. One could choose to take all cavalry, or all infantry, or go heavy on missile units, or take a balanced army, comprising of all three types.

Then how it plays out depends on the individual in command. I prefer to do multiple feints and then pin with infantry and outflank with cavalry. Other people prefer to do full, head on attacks. Still others prefer to sit back and let themselves be attacked.

If you are on a team, you will have to work together to succeed. A team that is comprised of three good players that do not work too well as a team can and will be beaten by a team of three average players that work together.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

1. The reason strategy has stagnanted is that people play the same maps over and over again, maps that are not very challenging to work with. When ever I play online (which I plan on doing when I get back from NYC,

That has nothing to do with strategy. Strategy is just as important on steppes as on any other map.

The reason team games are so boring, is that team games today are for instance in a 3 vs 3 match, 6 seperate armies fighting, not 2 armies fighting each other.

Then I suggest your not playing as a team. I Know the good clans of old here certainly always fought as one army as thats the secret of victory.

I think that the best way to rememdy this situation is A. to limit the amount of units in each army, this allows you to fight with better valour units,

Thats a function of the florin level not how many units you take.

as well as allows you to be a wing/center of an army rather than a seperate army.

Again this is your and your allies fault. Most clans again learn to play as a single army in fact in RTK we developed what we called combined armies and you would have units all over the field.

. I often hear people say ohh, you attacked before your partner joined up with you, which according to them is a basic of team games. It seems to me, they want to create 1 large army out of 3 forces (in a 3vs3), not 3 armies.

Thats the whole idea.

The smaller amount of units will reflect that. When you have 16 units to Micromanage, sometimes you can loose track of what is going on with your allies.

In other words you cant handle big armies and battles

My ideal small unit armies would be from 6-10 units rather than 16.

I used to host games with 6 or 7 units max. Sometimes I would also make each player take all cav, inf, range or cav alowing their gen to be whatever they like forcing them to make a combined army. It is quite a bit of fun and requires more teamwork . The only thing limiting any of this is our imaginations .

1. VI units need to be edited, Swordsmen power down, Pikemen power up, make stronger when in hold position, as well as spearmen.

I have also addressed this with the current tourney rules of V1 max on swords and cav.

The reason MTW/VI isnt as popular is as has been said its getting old and most of all most vets went to RTW when it came out.

You want to revatilize it ? Then everyone should DL La Reconquista mod and try that for a while. Its a whole new game.

Or better yet form clans again and learn how to play it right.

[Tomisama]

A MTW/VI Triple Crown, Clan versus Clan Tournament is soon to start.

Clans already confirmed for this 4v4 event:

Aggony
Tiger
Takiyama
Clan LONG
Celtiberos
Hunter
Pendragon
Mokum Knights
RTK
Sacred Company
Armata della Fenice

The They will be playing by the Valour Rules:

Valour One as the overall Maximum, with Valour Two Max for units with an Anti-Cavalry Bonus, and No Artillery.

Early, High, and Late Eras limited to 7, 8, and 9000 Florins respectively.

All played on the Realm custom maps with any terrain possibly prescribed for any given Match.


At the CWC we have had a full set of Medieval Clan Wars Seasonal Championships, a special Knights OF Summer Competition, and a Grand Championship, all under a “no rules” convention. We now move on to the next and more difficult level, with rules that produce a more Challenging Contest. For us MTW/VI has entered a New Era.

The aim of all this to put the Challenge back, and bring the players back to a game they have played for years by reinventing it This is at least one way to Reinvigorate the MTW/VI community. And it seems to be working.

We hope that you too will play the Valour Rules, to help us in this effort.

For more information on these rules, and tools to help you create the new armys they require, please visit the Clan Wars message board, “The Knights Of Valour Base Rule” thread.

http://p219.ezboard.com/fclanwars354...opicID=4.topic

[ichi]

I agree with everything Gawain wrote.

I disagree with a lot of the assumptions made in the original post.

ichi

[Grey_Fox]

Tomi, I believe Mokum Knights disbanded some time in the last few days. Wrong thread (probably), but there you go.

[Tomisama]

If I lost faith every time a Clan disbanded, Clan Wars would have been finished years ago. And disbanding is most often simply just redistribution in the community anyway. The accord is all that is lost, not the people.

In my opinion the solid fact is that Medieval Total War Viking Invasion is still the best war gamers game on the planet. And I don’t see that changing any time in the near future. On that alone I think we can stand.

[7Bear7Bottom]

Medieval Total War Viking Invasion is still the best war gamers game on the planet.

No Shogun is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ]

Vikings comes in 2nd.

To the original poster, m8, join a clan and become part of the battle, instead of being apart.

[Tomisama]

Apologies to Grey Fox.

In rereading, I may have misinterpreted “but there you go”.

If that is the case, I shall be Thanking You for passing on that information

MK will be removed from the competitors list until I can check this out.


Great News! The Silent Assassins, Bears, and Chaos, have joined the Contest

Three slots left (two if MK is indeed comming).

http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Three slots left (two if MK is indeed comming).

I know for a fact that Hunds and Doom have joined the Hunters(who hasnt? ) now. So I wouldnt be looking for the MKs to enter.

[Tiger_Tamerlane]

Yep.That´s true.And if my information is right,then was MK dead since 1 year.

[Tomisama]

I think that the MK sign-up was possibly part of an attempt to rally the Clan's remnants, that didn’t pan out. No harm done.

We now stand at 13 Clan Teams, with a possible second Team entry from the Tigers making it 14 (please note that same Clan Teams may have to fight each other in this particular Contest).

In any case the slots open are few. And we will be starting very soon, with a full compliment or without. Please post now to be included in this Classic of Classic Competitions.

1.Aggony
2.Tiger
3.Takiyama
4.Clan LONG
5.Celtiberos
6.Hunter
7.Pendragon
8.RTK
9.Sacred Company
10.Armata della Fenice
11.Silent Assassins
12.7Bear7
13.Chaos


http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540

[Tiger_Tamerlane]

Cool,that will make a few of our members very happy.
The 4 Senators and a few Members will join ,thx temi.

[EatYerGreens]

On the subject of re-invigoration, I've only been on MP for a couple of days and already have seen at least half a dozen people come on, having 'just bought' the game and eager to give it a go but getting immediate frustration at not being able to see any games to join.

Luckily there are plenty of people willing to to take them through the whole process of patching, where to download from and so on. Noob I may be but I've read the MP guides and even I have been able to help a few. (Of course, I plug the forum gratuitously, too :D )

It's getting to the point where I'm thinking things like "how can I get a macro to type all this in the chat window?" LOL

Speaking of which, some players seem able to sent the same chat message several times per second (spammers included). I can't work out how to do this - is it a Gamespy feature? (We encourage as many as we can to dump it and log on via the game).

[EDIT: I've been given the reply to this online but, so as to discourage potential spamming, I'll not reveal what it is. ]

Anyway, there's a pile of new players joining but I think this is the 'bargain bin effect' because they are all using MTW. Is VI hard to find on the shop shelves these days, or something? (I'm not a regular visitor to the PC store).

One last thing. There is no RTFM get-out clause for some noob questions. Apparently the bargain edition doesn't have one.

I've gone and signed the CoH, so I'll have to do whatever I can, when I can, for them. The more, the merrier, as they say.

I've seen 6 people online and I've seen 56 people online. How does that rate compared to the old days?

[Geezer57]

Anyway, there's a pile of new players joining but I think this is the 'bargain bin effect' because they are all using MTW. Is VI hard to find on the shop shelves these days, or something? (I'm not a regular visitor to the PC store).

I browse the store shelves just about every week - plain MTW v1.0 is in the bargain bins everywhere, less frequently encountered but still common is the MTW-VI combo pack, but the standalone VI add-on is scarce as hen's teeth.

[Tiger_Tamerlane]

eBay.Here in Germany i have buy the Viking Add-On at eBay for 6.99 Euro.

[EatYerGreens]

less frequently encountered but still common is the MTW-VI combo pack, but the standalone VI add-on is scarce as hen's teeth.

That's not good news.

This is crazy marketing policy. They're treating it just like it's any of a million other computer games and expect it to go the way of the rest of them. However, that's because typical games begin to look dated as soon as the latest one comes along.

The 'genres', however, have persisted for quite some years. You have first-person shooters, role-play games, sports simulations and so forth.

What they seem to have forgotten is that table-top wargames have been around for ages and still continue to appeal to upcoming generations. Anyone who's ever played 'Risk' can instantly get to grips with the MTW strategy game and with the 3D battles on top and multiplayer, it has just about everything one could hope for. A table-top game, rich in detail, that doesn't even need packing away when you're done for the day. One couldn't ask for much more than that. Hang on, I'm forgetting it's near-infinitely customiseable too.

By rights, people will still be wanting a game like this several years from now but, the way it's being handled now, it just won't be there.

I don't know how the sales of Rome went, compared to MTW but, if it was any less, you can bet some executive has laid down the law and said "let's not progress further down this line, get to work on something else".

[Jochi Khan]

Hi EatYerGreens

Try www.amazon.co.uk
You can get the Viking Invasion stand alone there for £7.97.

Jochi

[EatYerGreens]

Hi EatYerGreens

Try www.amazon.co.uk
You can get the Viking Invasion stand alone there for £7.97.

Jochi

Hi Jochi,

thanks for the info. I have VI myself, so this is not a problem for me. The point I was making is that some of the people currently picking up clearance-priced copies of MTW may become interested in VI, thanks to hearing about it in the forums but, when they go looking to buy it, they're going to have problems finding a copy, other than second-hand.

Since it was an optional expansion-pack, the chances are that stockpiles of VI fall well short of the numbers of MTW disks in circulation.

I suppose the key factor here is whether factory production of either, or both titles has irreversibly come to a halt.

Ironically, some of the table-top games of pre-computer days are still on sale even now. I say this game is a long-term earner, albeit at low sales volume and thus unlikely to place CA's name in the weekly chart - like that was even important.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ironically, some of the table-top games of pre-computer days are still on sale even now. I say this game is a long-term earner, albeit at low sales volume and thus unlikely to place CA's name in the weekly chart - like that was even important.

I think the only thing that can kill off MTW/VI will be closing down the server. Ive been plauing it for 3 years now and its still my favorite and in fact almost the only game I play.

What they seem to have forgotten is that table-top wargames have been around for ages and still continue to appeal to upcoming generations. Anyone who's ever played 'Risk' can instantly get to grips with the MTW strategy game and with the 3D battles on top and multiplayer, it has just about everything one could hope for. A table-top game, rich in detail, that doesn't even need packing away when you're done for the day. One couldn't ask for much more than that. Hang on, I'm forgetting it's near-infinitely customiseable too.

When I was a little kid I started with Stratego and risk and of course plastic soldiers of all kinds and eras. Then as a teen I got into Avalon Hill and Strategic Simulation table top war games. Calling Jutland a table top game was a real joke as you had to have a good sized room to plot it all out on the floor. There were no computers or even video games. The along came the Turbo Graphic 16 and Hertzog Zewi and a turn based game whos name escapes me. Then all sorts of neat war games for consoles and computers But nothing comes even close to VI MP .MTW was everything had ever wanted in a game and VI just made it better. Thats why Rome was so dissapointing as I thought it would be the same but with better graphics and more untis. Instead it bares little resemblance to these games or STW. I still have 1 or 2 old table top games still shrink wrapped from the 80s.

[Eternal Champion]

I still have 1 or 2 old table top games still shrink wrapped from the 80s.

Wow, still shrink wrapped. I have still have several somewhere in the house, not shrink wrapped. Tobruk, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Midway, and a couple others whose names I can't think of at the moment.

Ever play "The Ancient Art Of War", played on my old IBM 8088 was a rock, paper, scissors game like MTW. There was even a naval version of the game that actually came with both 5 1/4" and 3 1/4" floppys! Man were we living then.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ever play "The Ancient Art Of War",

Yup. I rememer playing wooden ships and iron men on my apple II. Puruit of the Graff Spee was another favorite of mine and the original Dune was a great game for its time. The forerunner of stuff like WC.

[Tomisama]

How about Castles II?

Castles II was the low tech predecessor of the Total War series. It had a campaign, and battles you could fight with some low-res sprites. It was very basically the game we have now in Medieval, but it only included provinces in France if I remember right.

I bought it for my niece from a toy store a bargain bin for five bucks. She played it to death for a year and a half