Eyg

[ichi]

It pains me no end, but I must agree with T1. Get elite cav and inf (base morale 8) and give them no upgrades, then add a lot of missile troops

*washes repeatedly*

ichi

[Ghost of Rom]

I thought the idea was that AP bonus is supposed to negate armour bonus but someone with no armour should get sliced up like a good un?

The armor piercing bonus only applies to armor. You can still have a good defense value without armor by adding valor.
The axe men have a standard attak value...say 5. Plus if the enemy is wearing armor they receive a bonus depending on how good the armor is. Higher armor number bigger bonus. So if you have say a unit at armor 9 you may be getting a bonus of 3 or 4 added to the standard attak value of 5. Now the axemen are attaking at 8 or 9. Better to have a low or no armor unit on the armor piercers and put your armored troops against something less lethal if possible.

[Grey_Fox]

I have played a few low florin games, and like Ichi and UglyGoat I would go with 16 units.

[EatYerGreens]

Arkell, you agreed with me on less than 16 but, in fact, I was asking a question about other people's view on this. Personally, I would go for 16 and gamble on the opposing player(s) doing likewise, so I'm not expecting any major valour/morale mismatches.

Besides, I prefer to have the 'ground coverage' of a full formation - a narrower front invites partial overlap and/or flanking.

[Grey_Fox]

EYG, 16 unit army in my experience is better than a 12 unit army with more valour.

[Puzz3D]

No armour = more effective versus AP?

That's not the whole story. When a unit is given +1 armor it also gets +1 defend. What the armor piercing weapon does is halve the portion of the defend value that comes from armor:

attack bonus = (target armor - 1)/2.
Contributions to the armor value from the horse or shield are removed before calculating the attack bonus.

I'm encouraged to hear that serveral of the other factions will aquit themselves well, suitably valoured up. How about when the florins are limited and there's no leeway to valour up anything? Would you recommend taking fewer units, with adequate valour improvements, or chance it with 16 x v0?

Generally, you want to take 16 units simply because upgrades are overpriced. For instance, a valor upgrade costs 70%, but only provides a 40% increase in combat power and a 2 point increase in morale. A weapon upgrade costs 33%, but only provides a 20% increase in combat power. An armor upgrade costs 35%, and provides a 20% increase in combat power and 1 point of armor. Also, the more ranged units you have the more total ammo you have.

So for instance, a cmaa costs 250 florins and has 8 combat points. To double it's combat power you have to add 4 combat points which will be a double valor upgrade costing 472 florins (722 total unit cost). However, you could buy 8 combat points by getting another cmaa for 250 florins which would also double the number of men you have and give you two maneuverable units. So, it comes down to how well you can coordinate two weaker units against a single stronger unit. If you simply send in your weaker units one at a time, they will probably both loose to the stronger unit.

Valor upgrades are also used to raise the morale of low cost units which otherwise would rout very easily. For instance, highland clansmen at 100 florins can be boosted to morale = 4 and 7 combat points with a double valor upgrade which brings the unit's cost to 288 florins. A cmaa with no upgrades costs 250, has 8 combat points and morale = 4. So, the clandsmen are close to that, but still slightly weaker and slightly more expensive.

[Ghost of Rom]

EYG, 16 unit army in my experience is better than a 12 unit army with more valour.

This is very true due to flanking bonus's and outnumbering like has been said. But there does come a point where the florins can get low enough where you cant buy 16 units with a decent valor. Morale below 6 for your core units can get very dicey. A good cavalry charge and a routing unit can often scare your whole army into a mass route.

No armour = more effective versus AP?

I think of it more as
"no armor = armor piercers not get to use thier big bonus on us "

[EatYerGreens]

I had some technical troubles a few days back and gave MP a miss for a few days. Hope to be back again soon.

Anyone seen Sinan online yet?

[Arkell]

Ahh peoples, I must have mistaken at how 'low' florin the games we talking about. When i said i didnt take full 16 units, i might only sacrifice one unit or two at the most to compensate just a valor or to get those arbs some armor. Like when i had 150-200 florins left and thinking of bringing a feudal sergeants at v0 (altho ichi will kill me if he see's me bringing yet some spearmen ) so i sacrifice them to give others some upgrade.

And yeah EYG, where are u??

[ichi]

Gah! Spears Gah!

*looks at Arkell 's army*

j/k mate, use what makes sense to you. My point to all new online players is that spears (Spearmen, Feudal Sargents, Order Foot, Saracens, whatever, any unit with spears) is that they have notoriously low morale, poor killing power, and are relatively expensive for what you get (in other words low value). Cav are adequate anticav, polearms even better.

That said, many experienced players (including ichi) use spears from time to time depending on the situation.

ichi

[Scurvy]

I like having 16 units and would never dream of having less, if the opponent has less then its even better because very few units no matter what morale rout when hit in back by extra unit :D

also i think the best anti-cav in game are horse archers, they can flank and shoot enemy cav/inf and run outa way when chased- if cav do chase them they get tired out + horse archers rnt terrible in combat so flanking with them ot using them vs light cav works just fine

[Arkell]

Sucrvy, man, I thot you like you using those Skezs, I dont know you are in LOVE with them.. hope to see u around again to chase those annoying lil thing, been trying to login but keep getting those 'Account Details Error' msg which becomes annoying after 45mins now..

Edit: Ahh at last I logged in, and managed to play an epic with Elrich and Gawain against the Hunters (dang Ichi survived!) we lost but it was one of the best battle i played. Thanks guys. Need to do more

[Scurvy]

your just jelous of a) how good they are b) how much they love me

[Togakure]

Whoa ... you're a Hunter now Ichi-san? Very cool ... congrats and welcome. I haven't been over to the Hunter forum yet (I just got back online after a lengthy disconnect). Apparently I have a lot of catching up to do. Earlier today I did reply to Georgie's thoughtful e-mail, and asked him to harass Hik and Sun for me etc. If I'd have known you were on board I'd have asked him to harrass you too .

I am currently Mr. Mom Toga for 3 kids under 5 (mom is recovering from major surgery and dad is a hard-working lawyer). I've also moved to a bedroom community outside of NYC (no more sucky Reno, YAY!!!). My computer died completely about a month ago, so I'm stuck using my buddie's laptop and won't be able to game anytime soon. For the time being I'll just annoy you all on the forums so I have plenty of challenges to answer when I get back--hopefully that will accelerate my reeducation as I surely suck after being away for so long ... (leaves the barn door WIDE open ...).

Nice to see the friendly banter in this thread, and to know that mtw and mtw/vi are still kicking. Happy Hunting, gents. I miss the games, but more so the good company. I hope I can make it back before too long.

- Hunter Togakure

[ichi]

Hey TO

Yes, Hunters invited me in a couple of months ago.

Some really good guys but you do need to keep harassing Hik and Sun.

Hope all is well, get back online soon

ichi