origins of the middle finger

**xemitg** · 08-27-2005, 15:05

I did not know this and i thought it interesting... Perhaps you guys have seen this before though.
origins of middle finger

**The Blind King of Bohemia** · 08-27-2005, 15:30

The two fingered salute existed probably before Agincourt as well. Most British Archers caught by the French were put to death, tortured first by having their two bow fingers cut off then killed. Men at arms would be ransomed as well as knights but Archers would have been killed.

The hatred came from the devastation the mounted Archers caused during the great raids or Chevauchees as huge areas of France were put to the torch by the English flying columns and their actions in bringing down the armoured Knight who saw themselves as Kings of the battle field and to see meer Archers effecting their battlefield presence saw them hating the men and their great warbows.

**Grey_Fox** · 08-27-2005, 18:04

Just to prevent confusion, BKB does not mean that English archers fought on horseback, just that they moved around on horses. When they came across an enemy, they dismounted and fought on foot.

**Longshanks** · 08-27-2005, 21:44

The middle finger gesture predates Agincourt by several centuries. The Romans used the same gesture as an insult, and it symbolized an erect penis.

According to a contributor on the always interesting Urban Legends Archive, the upright stab of the middle finger represents "phallic domination/hostility."

Despite the popular and widely circulated story that the gesture comes from the 1415 battle of Agincourt, this ultimate insult actually dates back as far as to ancient Greece and Rome. The first written record of someone "flipping the bird" comes from the writings of Aristophanes, who spoke of it in "The Clouds," a play from 423 B.C. The Romans even had a special name for the middle finger -- they called it digitus infamis (infamous finger) or digitus impudicus (indecent finger).

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030717.html

Roman soldiers probably gave the finger to their enemies long before the longbowmen at Agincourt.

**edyzmedieval** · 08-27-2005, 22:44

Wow....

Interesting

I knew about the Agincourt 2 fingers. Not very insulting, in my opinion.

**Red Peasant** · 08-30-2005, 07:36

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Interesting

I knew about the Agincourt 2 fingers. Not very insulting, in my opinion.

Well, it means Incompatible language, which is quite insulting where I come from!

Just so people know, I was just explaining, not insulting anyone.

**Aenlic** · 08-30-2005, 18:31

Snopes.com

**Red Peasant** · 08-31-2005, 04:46

Originally Posted by Aenlic

Snopes.com

The article debunks a spurious origin for the 'F' word, and quite rightly. However, it doesn't explain the peculiarly English/British two-fingered salute. Our cultural tradition has long taught us that it originated in the 100 years war, but there is no evidence either for or against this. We prefer our traditional explanation, naturally.

When I was a kid the only 'F' salute used here was with two fingers, and the middle finger was unknown until it began to creep in about 20 years ago. We seemed to pick it up from the US but with a slightly different meaning, which I can't say because I'll have the Forum cops censoring me again, even though the words are not insulting individually but they are as a short two word phrase.

Jeez, circumlocutions ain't my forte

**Advo-san** · 08-31-2005, 11:47

@red peasant
IIRC the phrase is spiro, spero. Dum was added later on. But I m not sure, I might be doing a terrible mistake actually..

**Red Peasant** · 08-31-2005, 18:47

Originally Posted by Advo-san

@red peasant
IIRC the phrase is spiro, spero. Dum was added later on. But I m not sure, I might be doing a terrible mistake actually..

Yeah, you're more or less right. It is adapted from a passage in the letters ad Atticum, but not a direct quote. Maybe it is wrong for me to attribute it to C. in this form.

**barocca** · 08-31-2005, 20:03

Originally Posted by Red Peasant

which I can't say because I'll have the Forum cops censoring me again, even though the words are not insulting individually but they are as a short two word phrase.

profanity in all forms is not allowed, while we adults may be quite capable of understanding context of usage we do have younger patrons who visit here, plus plenty of people who find such language offensive for cultural or religous reasons.

B.