Early Modern Total War

[dclare4]

Second that... they shouldn't take out stuff in other games that isn't broken....

Clare

[SwordsMaster]

Spain; durable naval power, light infantry, elite troops, heavy diplomacy, rich faction........................also in control of Spanish Netherlands.

Portugal; traders(major), diplomatic, small elite force, light infantry(militia), strong navy.

I beg to disagree here. Spain had probably the only professional standing army of the period, and its light infantry was not more or less important than in any other nations' armies. Spain did have light infantry but that was not their main strength. I think, to reflect properly the experience and organisation of spanish armies all troops that composed a "tercio" should start with extra experience and all of them should be "organised".

Spain was The power in western Europe up until the battle of Rocroi (in 1648?) which marked its death and the rise of France as the major power.

Spanish diplomacy was actually quite arrogant and severe, due mostly to the fear that the empire inspired. Spain, also controlled the kingdom of Naples and had sacked and occupied Rome in the early XVI century.

As of Portugal, it had a Very strong navy. So strong that the land forces only needed to be average to bring portuguese rule to Africa, Asia and Brazil.
Portugal, BTW was a richer nation than Spain as it traded with China and Japan, something that Spain never did, and also because it didn't have to sustain as many costly wars. During some periods, the King of Spain had to borrow money from portuguese bankers to be able to sustain the fighting with the Dutch rebels.

I understand that the limitations of the engine will prevent you from showing a strong Portugal, as it would require a world map rather than just a European one, and the navies are not as powerful in RTW as they should be, but nevertheless you should keep as close as possible to what happened.

The Dutch relied heavily on mercenaries (mostly english and french) paid with english gold and protected by english fleets in the Channel.

BTW, if you need further information on Spain and Portugal (specially Spain) I will gladly give you a hand.

[Lord Winter]

As of Portugal, it had a Very strong navy. So strong that the land forces only needed to be average to bring portuguese rule to Africa, Asia and Brazil.

Portugal, BTW was a richer nation than Spain as it traded with China and Japan, something that Spain never did, and also because it didn't have to sustain as many costly wars. During some periods, the King of Spain had to borrow money from portuguese bankers to be able to sustain the fighting with the Dutch rebels.

I understand that the limitations of the engine will prevent you from showing a strong Portugal, as it would require a world map rather than just a European one, and the navies are not as powerful in RTW as they should be, but nevertheless you should keep as close as possible to what happened.

We could maybe represent this with buildings. Some where like this:
Trade rout requires docklevelX and marketlevelX. along with maybe another building gold could then be given by building effect or script symbolizing the trade gained by the colony or trade rout. As for borrowing money i would love to find someway to get it in to the game but the engine as you said presents problems. Maybe this could also be done by a script similer to the trade routs one. In fact we should probably aim for as new as an economy system as possible within coding.
DoH

[Bleda]

sorry to intervene late into your thread, but what is EM: Total War based on or at least what is it all about? Like Medieval or reniasance adaption to the RTW engine?

[Lord Winter]

Early modern Total war is based off the period of early modern europe which is between the rennisance and nepolien. The first era of our mod will be in the elightiment from around 1718-1787

[Cesare diBorja]

I often wonder, too, if the disparagement between nations dealing with their currency could be represented. This option would clearly show the wealth of nations(ecu$3.75, florin$6.75, livre$1.75, ducat$6.25, pound$25.00, gulden$5.25, guilder$$5.25, franc$1.25) circa1640-1750.

I am amazed CA has made no notion of the differences in currency throughout the ages. It would be a simple script. The power a nation has could be represented in this sort of way.

Swordmaster; I will not argue with your knowledge of Spain and Portugal in the early modern era, knowing of you from the Napoleonic website. I will perhaps come to you for very specific knowledge from time to time. Thank you.

Merry Xmas to all

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

We need to look at our start date again. Our options

1718: What we have right now as the end date. It marked the ending of a series of wars against France that established Britten as a major power. This date also marked the end of British forces operating on the mainland until the time of Napoleon. In the north it is 3 years until the end of the great northern war which established Russia as a major power and ended sweden's Baltic dominance.

1721
End of the great northern war, all of the dominant European powers for the 18th century had established their dominance except for Prussia. Resulting in their defeat in the great northern war Sweden is no longer a large power.

1700
Austria and France have already been established as the major powers of Europe along with Sweden. The great northern war had just started. In the west Britten and her allies were in the middle of the series of wars against France. I prefer this date due to the fact that the political shape of the 18th century wasn't decided yet.


As for the idea of different currencies that may be able to scripted in.
One of our goals for this mod should be to reform the economy and recruiting system as much as in limits of hard coding.

DoH

[Cesare diBorja]

I agree it should be 1700 as well, it is the true beginning of the early modern era. The pike had been mainly put to rest and there was no longer a reliance on cavalry to be the main arm. Rather it was infantry and literally how any you could field for skirmish and volley fire that determined the day(until the day of the tank, newest cavalry form, and already in the U.S. becoming obselete again). At the end of the Nine Years' War, Britain's generals had seen no other reason for the pike to be afield as it tended to cause more casualties.

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

Cesare diBorja do you have any experiance with animations?

[Cesare diBorja]

I have some but not much. I have video tutorials from 3dsmax on how to work the whole system; the matter is time and how best to use it. I have been making models and skins so far and exploring the scripts for details of what needs to be changed. I have not been looking into animation all that hard. I will, of course, do that if you wish?

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

Keep working on the models and skins if you want or look into the animations. Curently i am working on the scripts and historical research. Right now I am just trying to get an idea on what we still need team wise.

[Cesare diBorja]

There are at least two on this end(modeling, skinning, possible animations). I did some animations work with NTW1 after it was released from the NTW folks, I simply changed some animations of theirs. I have done limited work with 3dsmax and none for RTW.

diBorgia

[Cesare diBorja]

It would be reallu cool to make horsemen have animations where they are firing their carbines from horseback. I think I will have a look at doing some of that.

[Lord Winter]

The building upkeep script is almost ready and i hope to post a brief faction history of Sweden (will not be used in game) sometime this week.
DoH

[Cesare diBorja]

Sweet, DoH;

I have been busy with school. I have pondered making a whole new basic model, or set of models for BI. The spline tech in 3dmax7 is quite good so I plan to have faces that show emotion, rounded body parts. I am even looking into whether or not true damaged can be represented in-game(loss of arms, legs, head) also loss of hats, dropping weapons, etc. All very long and tedious work, but the end benefits will be so sweet(ahh, the pipe dreams). Wish me luck, this is truly a hobby now.

diBorgia

P.S. I will try to post my images from basic RTW. They're good but far from perfect, far from what I wish to represent.

Cheers

[richyg13]

Any musket related animations i get to work im heppy to share to this mod, ive been playing with them but cant get anything to work in game yet. Our mod operates either side of your mod with the main difference being able to play over the entire world, not just europe. (note all the images and stuff in my sig are kinda out of date :P)
I've made a spanish swordsman recently which may have some relavence to your mod if u want it. its not finished... ill post u an updated image soon, suffering from photoshop not saving the alpha channel properly.

[Cesare diBorja]

Hey, Thanks, richyg13,

Happy to have the help. I am sure we can work together on the respective mods to accomplish a great deal. Let me know if I can assist with your mod in some way.

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

1. Great Britain
2. France
3. Spain
4. Sweden
5. Denmark-Norway
6. Prussia
7. The Reich Empire(includes Austria, Bavaria, and Prussia)
8. The Kingdom of Austria-Hungary
9. Duchy of Venice
10. Kingdom of the Two Sicilies
11. Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia(The House of Savoy)
12. Genoese Republic
13. Kingdom of Saxony and Poland
14. Imperial Russia
15. The Ottaman Empire
16. Hanover(The House of Brunswick)
17. The Kingdom of Portugal
18. Switzerland
19. The United Privinces(The Dutch)
20. The Kingdom of Bavaria
21. The Barbary Coast

There is a hard coded problem here. One faction has to be rebel and since we are porting over to BI the hard coded limit is tightend to under 21 factions including rebels. So if we get rid of the senate we still have 20 factions but that still leaves one more to take out at the very least.
DoH

[Cesare diBorja]

The only two I can think of are Hanover and Bavaria(Reich Empire) as these two were insignificant in the time of the Seven Years' War. England had control of the one and Austria the other. My suggestions are, however, purely academic and not to offend anyone.

You choose, DoH

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

The only two I can think of are Hanover and Bavaria(Reich Empire) as these two were insignificant in the time of the Seven Years' War. England had control of the one and Austria the other. My suggestions are, however, purely academic and not to offend anyone.

You choose, DoH

diBorgia

I would have to do some more research on both to see which to cut.

Building upkeep is finished and i am thinking of moving onto currency or even seeing if i could make the prices of buying grain (see above post) change due to supply and demand. I don't think the prisoners script is possible due to the fact that we cant tell which units are in the stack that is going into battle.

[Cesare diBorja]

The new models are somewhat slow-going but proceeding well. The only other factions would be to close down 'Two Sicilies' and/or Genoa Republic and leave them as free or rebel states if you find it hard to reconcile Bavaria or Hanover not to be in the game.

Cheers

diBorgia

Have you looked into 'Medieval Total War 2' yet?

[Lord Winter]

Have you looked into 'Medieval Total War 2' yet?

It looks good, but for the mod i think we should get a version out on Rome first. When it comes out and the rome version is finished IMHO we should move over, Kind of like a EMTW2

[dclare4]

Well if you guys will be waiting for MTW2 why not make the mod a bit smaller in scope rather than Europe wide perhaps just western Europe so you can get some more detail in there. I don't know, I'm more of the persuation that you should go in depth over a smaller area and lengthen a shorten period of time rather than generalize.

Here's something I'd suggest - it's easier than most because it uses most of the pre-existing tech including phalanx formations, pure missile (as opposed to missile and melee) troops and armour.

Sun King Total War

Players take one of the leading factions and struggle to win the favor of the king while expanding France's glory - or they can strive to tear it down as one of the rivals of France such as William of Orange, the Great Elector of Brandenburg or the Holy Roman Emperor. Time period from the accession of the boy king to his twilight during the era of Marlborough. Only Western Europe will be represented (notable exceptions will be the Polish, Ottoman and Swedish 'horde' factions). The game system can then be adapted to other places and similar periods like the 30 years war or the Spanish succession specifically. This time boasts glorious visuals (he's not the Sun King for nothing!) on the field and in the cities.

SUGGESTED FACTIONS
The House of Bourbon-Conde (Prince de Conde, Duc de Enghien and the royal cousins)
The House of Guise (Duc de Guise, Duc de Grammont)
The House of Montmorenci (Duc de Montmorenci)
The House of Caumont (Duc de Lauzun)
The House of Fouquet (Marquis de Belle Isle)
The House of the Cardinal Duc (Richelieu, Mazarin)
The House of Savoy (Prince de Savoy)

RIVAL DYNASTIC HOUSES
Hapsburg (HRE)
Guelph (Hanover)
Orange (Netherlands)
Hohenzollern (Brandenburg)
Stuart (England and Scotland)
Albertine (Saxony)
Bayern (Bavaria)
Hapsburg of Spain (Spain and Portugal)

OFFMAP INVADERS
The Scots Highlanders
The English Parliamentarians
The Irish
The Swedes
The Poles
The Ottoman Empire

Each faction must build up their own 'estate' ultimately gaining royal favor while discovering military innovations to bring them from the renaissance into the modern military world. This was a time of great experimentation and different systems were in play including the Spanish Tercio, Swedish Brigade, Dutch Battalion, English Regiment. Find out which was the best on the battlefield. The main battle area should stretch from Northern Spain to the Rhine states including Hanover and Bavaria as well as Southern England. Great battles of the era include Rocroi, The Dunes, Killiecrankie, Marsaglia and once your basic system is in place it's not much work to change France into the English Civil War, the Scottish Covenanter Wars, the League of Augsburg or Wars of Devolution or even the Thirty Years War by changing some small details and the basic factions (for example all the German States plus France, Spain and Sweden for a Thirty Years War set).

Some refs:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mcn..._years_war.htm
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mcn...nario_18th.htm
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mcn...mouth_1685.htm

Just a thought, do with it what you will...
de Clare

[Cesare diBorja]

Frankly, I'm tired of pikes, swords(in the classic sense), axes and seiges engines. Practically bored to tears. The rome and medieval thing is over done in my opinion. I play Dacia now as they and the other barbarian states closely match early modern combat styles. I just wanna use the musket and the bayonet, saber, pickaxe, and cannon. Sorry, Chap.

It's a good idea its just far from what I want to do with my time.

Thanks anyway, dclare4!

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

The options as i see them
1) wait until MTWII and do a huge amount of research over the spring and summer then start modding when it comes out,
2) just work on the 18th century then go MTWII when it's finished
3) focus on one war or person
4) Stay with the original timeframe 1618-1787
I personally prefer 2

[Cesare diBorja]

1, 2 and 4 work for me. I would like to continue as I have work out unit schemes and am now looking into building research. Modelling is slow and steady as ever. I want to have a number of different faces and body styles by the time MTW2 comes out. I like that 'blood and mud' have been incorporated into the game. Maybe CA will give multiple hit points to personnel now and make weapons do a varying degree of dammage, for instance a musketball could do 1-5 points of damage, where 5 is the maximum a person can take. Also, I like the fact that horse and/or man can be lost, but, the possibility of a counterpart surviving is also likely. I wonder, thirdly, if they'll have civilians in the rural and urbans settings to add to the chaos of battle. They are beginning to invoke my interest beyond the norm. I am actually feeling like they may come through this time.

diBorgia

p.s. What about an script that allows a player to modify unit type and strength, weapon type and uniform. So you could have a grenadier battalion(60-100personnel) that uses musket/bayonet and a pickaxe(classic pioneer unit). They could be used to hack throuh a farmhouse wall or hack through a fortress wall. Or maybe a grenadier company(14-20persons) that uses the fusil(more accurate musket)/bayonet and they also throw three to six grenades(Austrian, Prussian, Russian fact).(?)

p.s.2 How about a script that allows you to attach and detach units from other units, hence a musketeer regiment has two battalions of musketeers, two companies of grenadiers and an infantry company that mans two 3pdr or 4pdr cannons or Coehorn howitzers, but also you could subdivide these units into platoons.(?)

[Lord Winter]

1 could work as separate unit types no script. 2. i don't think is possible

[Lord Winter]

I agree Hanover should be cut it was basically just the king of England's old land in the Holy roman empire.
Edit we should probably include Poland in there to. They played an important part in the great northern war.

[Cesare diBorja]

I forget which year the Saxons Kings became Polish leaders. The Poles and Saxons were one nation in the easrly part of the 18th C. I planned to make them one faction.

diBorgia

[Lord Winter]

If we want to include Prussia we have to move our start date up one more year to 1701 when it became a kingdom.

The Saxons held the throne at the start of our time period but lost it due to Swedish invasion in the great northern war in 1704. It was regained five years latter in 1709.


What if we used traits to represent the general economic shape of the country. By a verity of factors such as supply and demand, wars, farming ect.