Use Your Seat Belt Or We'll Kill You!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Two Texas Police Officers killed a Peruvian man trying to arrest him for a outstanding seat belt violation.

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/l...s/12429062.htm

This just illustrates how governments can use stupid little laws, like requiring seat belts or permits to be a small shed on your property, to totally screw up your life.

For crying out loud, let people be stupid if they want to. When you try and make laws 'for their own good', you are nothing more than a tyrant.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt."
Ayn Rand

Crazed Rabbit

[Roark]

What was he in hospital for? Was there a beating? Is the journalist trying to draw a link between his death and the use of pepper spray?

I agree with you Crazed Rabbit, but this article is annoyingly devoid of facts. Even the testimony of the relative of the deceased is vague...

[Redleg]

Lots more to the story then what is stated in the Article.

It made the rounds in the Dallas area when he was reported brain dead two week or three weeks ago.

[Aenlic]

I don't have a problem with people not wearing seatbelts or not wearing helmets when riding a motorcycle, as long as they sign waivers agreeing not to show up in the emergency rooms of tax-payer supported hospitals without insurance for injuries related to not wearing said items. No insurance, then let them die. After all, they choose not to take sound advice. That choice shouldn't become a burden on anyone else, however. Come to think of it, they should also be required to post a cash bond that will cover any tax-payer expenses related to injuries from not wearing a helmet or a seatbelt, whether it kills them or not. That way, if they do die from their injuries, the tax-payer doesn't have to pay for the funeral. No tax-payer paid funerals for boneheads. No right to sue for injuries related to not wearing those items.

People should be allowed to do whatever they wish, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of anyone else, or cost anyone else in any way. Want to use drugs? Go ahead. Steal to support your habit and lose the right to use drugs - for life. Want to blow your brains out? Go ahead. Just don't take anyone with you, or screw up and end up on life support at tax-payer expense. Want to live in your own filth? No problem. But if the smell gets so bad that it affects others, then your house gets burnt down - with you in it.

And Ayn Rand was a twisted, cranky old woman who spent her entire life rationalizing her appropriate hatred for Stalinism and misusing her intellect to turn the rationalization into fantasy system which is just as bad in its own way.

[Crazed Rabbit]

And Ayn Rand was a twisted, cranky old woman who spent her entire life rationalizing her appropriate hatred for Stalinism and misusing her intellect to turn the rationalization into fantasy system which is just as bad in its own way.

As bad as Stalinism? You greatly lessen the evils of Stalinism.

Crazed Rabbit

[Aenlic]

Or you greatly underestimate the evils of corporate consumerism and unbridled greed.

[Steppe Merc]

Red, any chance you have more clickies?

This just illustrates how governments can use stupid little laws, like requiring seat belts or permits to be a small shed on your property, to totally screw up your life.

For crying out loud, let people be stupid if they want to. When you try and make laws 'for their own good', you are nothing more than a tyrant.

How does this fit in with the "war on drugs", in which the feds have started to crack down really hard on pot, instead of harder drugs while we are fighting two real wars?

[A.Saturnus]

I don´t think you can die on pepper spray.

[Aenlic]

Sure you can. If you have breathing-related health problems such as acute asthma, you can indeed be killed with pepper spray. The real question to ask is which is which is more likely to kill you when you're resisting arrest or fighting the police or otherwise being a bonehead, pepper spray or a high velocity slug from a firearm? The answer, of course, is the slug from a firearm. Which is why non-lethal (usually but not always, there are no 100% guarantees) methods are becoming more widespread.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Or you greatly underestimate the evils of corporate consumerism and unbridled greed.

Although the mere name of raw capitalism might give you the jitters, in fact it would greatly help the economy and thus all people (not just create a whole bunch of rich people, as some would like people to believe).

How does this fit in with the "war on drugs", in which the feds have started to crack down really hard on pot, instead of harder drugs while we are fighting two real wars?

I for one am greatly against assest seizure, and the fact that it allows greedy cops to sieze your land if they detect a whiff of pot floating in the air.

Here's something that'll make you mad. .

Hey! I know! Let's give government more powers and let them take away all our guns!

Crazed Rabbit

[Redleg]

Red, any chance you have more clickies?

Not really - most of it was just talk radio, and Television. The Allen Police Department has been very queit on the subject considering they have some other history of using force on people that might not have been necessary.

The basic part of the story is that

The individual was parked in a car on the street near his uncle's house - where he demonstrated behavior that was questionable to the neighbors. What this behavior was is unclear in the news - and was unclear tot he neighbors as they had to think about it after the fact. However it seems that Mr. Vera was parked outside and waiting in the car for about 60 minutes.

When the police came to investigate - they ran a check on the license plates - like they are suppose to do. Because the man had a warrant - they were doing their job to arrest him. During this process Mr. Vera supposely got violent and struggled with the police. (The exact nature of this violence is being investigated by the Police Department) During this struggle the officers attempted to subdue him - applying pepper spray to force the man to give. However it turns out that unknown to the officers, Mr. Vera also suffered from asthma.

Pepper spray and asthma does not mix very well - my step-son is asthmic and pepper spray would cause him some severe problems if not death.

How does this fit in with the "war on drugs", in which the feds have started to crack down really hard on pot, instead of harder drugs while we are fighting two real wars?

This case has nothing to do with the "war of drugs." At best its a death from the use of pepper spray on an individual who chose to resist the police. An unfortunate choice for both Mr. Vera and the police officers involved. At worse its a case of police abuse that resulted in a death of an individual.

Knowing the Allen Police Department and thier track record - its most likely a combination of both situations. Mr. Vera made a poor choice in resisting the police in the performance of thier civic duty - and the Police probably came were a little to aggressive in thier attitude and process.

[Steppe Merc]

Red, I know that this has nothing to do with the war on drugs. That part was about Rabbit's quote, not about this story.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I never wear seatbelts. Anyone who says I should can [censored for good of humanity]
I have pretty much top-of-the-line insurance anyway, so yeah, I'm covered. But if I didn't, I pay my taxes, I should get the benefits of the hospital, BECAUSE I HELPED PAY FOR IT, and to be honest, I don't give a [censored] about anybody else, just me, my family, my friends, and America as a whole.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

For crying out loud, let people be stupid if they want to. When you try and make laws 'for their own good', you are nothing more than a tyrant.

Aint that the truth. I hate these laws with a passion. Its all about insurance costs not saving lives.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt."

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Someone we know got arressted for something stupid and he said well if he didnt do anything ilegal he wouldnt get arrested. I asked him how many people he knew that didnt do anything ilegal. He had to admit he didnt know many. If the arressted everybody who did anything ilegal most of the population including most of the cops would be in jail.

[Silver Rusher]

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Someone we know got arressted for something stupid and he said well if he didnt do anything ilegal he wouldnt get arrested. I asked him how many people he knew that didnt do anything ilegal. He had to admit he didnt know many. If the arressted everybody who did anything ilegal most of the population including most of the cops would be in jail.

Most? I'd say more than 95%. Even those who try to be absolutely perfect can't say they haven't made a parking violation or driven through a red lilght etc.

[Zalmoxis]

The future where newspapers and books are forbidden isn't that far off.

[yesdachi]

Most? I'd say more than 95%. Even those who try to be absolutely perfect can't say they haven't made a parking violation or driven through a red lilght etc.

Let he without sin (crime) cast the first stone (speeding ticket).

[Adrian II]

What has this got to do with seatbelts or outlawing books?

From what I read, the man should have paid his fine, he got a warrant because he didn't, and he got sprayed because he resisted arrest. If nothing else transpires, I do not see what the big deal is.

[yesdachi]

Aint that the truth. I hate these laws with a passion. Its all about insurance costs not saving lives.

I think you are right on the money. We don’t have seatbelt laws because politicians care about us. We have them because they save the insurance companies money*. And politicians who make laws that save insurance companies money get campaign funds from insurance companies.


*I think they are good and that they do save lives and reduce accident related injuries but I don’t like them being a law. And I really don’t like helmet laws (I’ll tell ya why if you ask but it’s a bit off topic).

[Azi Tohak]

I don't want to have to pay for some jackass' medical bills because he was tood dumb to wear his seat belt.

That is why the law is around. To keep you and I from having to pay for these idiots.

Azi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't want to have to pay for some jackass' medical bills because he was tood dumb to wear his seat belt.

How do you have to pay for it? Isnt that what insurance is for? The stupid part is the state mandadtes you must have insurance and they can pretty much charge you what they like. And talk about profiling. Thats what insurance is all about. If the state paid for accidents out of a fund then they for making such laws as would you because it would be your tax money paying for it. Its my opinion that the government has become far too much like the Mafia. They let big bussiness rape us as long as they get their cut.

[PanzerJaeger]

How much spray did they use!?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

How do you have to pay for it? Isnt that what insurance is for? The stupid part is the state mandadtes you must have insurance and they can pretty much charge you what they like. And talk about profiling. Thats what insurance is all about. If the state paid for accidents out of a fund then they for making such laws as would you because it would be your tax money paying for it. Its my opinion that the government has become far too much like the Mafia. They let big bussiness rape us as long as they get their cut.

They're not becoming like the Mafia, at least the mafia has some form of leadership, and at least the mafia provides some protection. The government does nothing.

[Redleg]

How much spray did they use!?

Enough to cause a severe asthma attack which stopped his breathing. The problem is that the police could not have known he had asthma.

However the Allen Police Department is supposely investigating the circumstances and how much pepper spray was actually used. But that does not remove the responsiblity of Mr Vera on this issue.

He resisted arrest - his actions placed him in the situation that he was in. Its a sad occurance - but its still the responsiblity of Mr. Vera to complie with the Police when they are performing their duties as the law requires. The Police did not go looking for Mr. Vera - a neighbor of his uncle called the police because of what he believed was suspecious (SP) behavior, the Police responded to the call - did a simple license check and discovered that he had a warrant for his arrest for a simple traffic citiation.

Face this one simple fact - without Mr. Vera Resisting Arrest - he would not have had pepper spray placed into his face. Then this fact - If Mr. Vera would of paid his ticket - or gone to court concerning the ticket - A warrant would not have been issued for his arrest.

The Police did not go looking for him to punish him for his not paying a simple ticket for not wearing his seat belt. We can hold the police responsible for using to much force - but the bit I left out is that the two police officers first tried to physically restrain the man - however it seems that he was enraged enough that the two police officers could not physically restrain him due to his physical size. That left the Police in a dangerous situation for them - Its easy to second guess the police after the fact - but when confronted with a man who might do you harm - which is better to use the Pepper spray or take a shot with your service weapon. The Police could not have known that Mr. Vera was asthmaic - so they took the next non-lethal step in thier stated procedures.

The seat belt issue that caused his being arrested - is really a non-issue. If you don't like the law write your congressman and protest it, get enough signatures and the government will have no choice but to address your concerns - or face the possiblity of you attempting to get them out of office.

As far as the premise of the initial poster -

This just illustrates how governments can use stupid little laws, like requiring seat belts or permits to be a small shed on your property, to totally screw up your life.

This is not an examble of that at all - its an examble of what might happen if you suffer from asthma and decide to resist arrested when the police are performing their duties as required by the law - a law that must be enforced until either it gets overturned by the courts or removed by the legislative process.

Where is your outrage at the individual who failed to take responsiblity for his actions - and got himself killed because he refused to complie with the Police?

Individual Responsiblity is the key, if you want the government to leave you alone - you must be responsible for your own actions. Which also means you must be accountable for your actions as well.

While the Police might have made a mistake - the individual (Mr. Vera) also made an equally deadly mistake.

[Slyspy]

Quite right Redleg.

[Tribesman]

I pay my taxes, I should get the benefits of the hospital, BECAUSE I HELPED PAY FOR IT,
Kaiser ; have they started taxing schoolchildren in your state to build hospitals ?

I never wear seatbelts.
Well your parents don't really value your safety very much then , do they ?

[_Martyr_]

Everytime this topic (seatbelt enforcement) comes up, it provides me with ever increasing amusement bundled with bafflement... I mean honestly! This is about the stupidist thing to campaign about ive ever heard!

Get this, if a person in a car that crashes is not wearing a seatbelt he or she can do an awful lot of damage to other road users with their hurtling bodies. If you want to drive without a seatbelt, fine, do it on your own property. Once you use a public road, its not purely your problem anymore if you crash without a seatbelt. Jesus, arent you the crowd always harping on about personal resonsibilty? Only when it suits I suppose...?

No, go find something real to be outraged about, believe me their are far grander and greater causes than this!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Face this one simple fact - without Mr. Vera Resisting Arrest - he would not have had pepper spray placed into his face. Then this fact - If Mr. Vera would of paid his ticket - or gone to court concerning the ticket - A warrant would not have been issued for his arrest.

And if the idiot police had brains enough to realize that they shouldn't use force on someone to make them comply with a law supposedly written for his own good, it wouldn't have happened either. Or, if the idiot legislators had not tried to become benevolent dictators, it wouldn't have happened either.

The seat belt issue that caused his being arrested - is really a non-issue. If you don't like the law write your congressman and protest it, get enough signatures and the government will have no choice but to address your concerns - or face the possiblity of you attempting to get them out of office.

This is not an examble of that at all - its an examble of what might happen if you suffer from asthma and decide to resist arrested when the police are performing their duties as required by the law - a law that must be enforced until either it gets overturned by the courts or removed by the legislative process.

The police don't get off so easily. They are not like robots who can do nothing but enforce the laws programmed into them.

Where is your outrage at the individual who failed to take responsiblity for his actions - and got himself killed because he refused to complie with the Police?

Why should I be outraged at a person who did nothing to harm his fellow man in any way? Why should I be outraged that he did not meekly consent to having every aspect of his life dictated 'for his own good'?

Individual Responsiblity is the key, if you want the government to leave you alone - you must be responsible for your own actions. Which also means you must be accountable for your actions as well.

And what if the gov't made a law stating you had to go around in a giant pillow suit to prevent injury? You act as though a law passed by congress is a command from God. Why must free men be accountable to the gov't if they do nothing to harm others? Why should we be forced to be responsible for every hair-brained idea the gov't thinks of?

While the Police might have made a mistake - the individual (Mr. Vera) also made an equally deadly mistake.

Yes; he thought he was in a free country.

Get this, if a person in a car that crashes is not wearing a seatbelt he or she can do an awful lot of damage to other road users with their hurtling bodies. If you want to drive without a seatbelt, fine, do it on your own property. Once you use a public road, its not purely your problem anymore if you crash without a seatbelt. Jesus, arent you the crowd always harping on about personal resonsibilty? Only when it suits I suppose...?

Hurtling bodies injuring others? That's a good laugh. And I'm all for personal responsibility-but not for government enforced responsibility to yourself. Should we have laws about hygeine, bathroom cleaning, doing carpentry or siding by yourself?

No, go find something real to be outraged about, believe me their are far grander and greater causes than this!

I always wear my seltbeat, it's the principal of the thing (and stuff like this, which illustrates the stupidity of the laws).

Governments have no right to decide what it is safe for men to do - they become tyrannies when they take the freedom to choose away from man.

Crazed Rabbit

[Papewaio]

Hurtling bodies injuring others? That's a good laugh.

The researchers found that the risk of death for a restrained target in the front seat was increased by 20% when a passenger in the back seat was unrestrained. For a target in the back seat, (restrained or unrestrained), the risk of death was increased by 22% when the front passenger was not wearing a seatbelt. The risk of death for a restrained side-seat target increased by 15% when the passenger on the other side of the car was not wearing a seatbelt.

The authors estimate that use of seatbelts by passengers in the back seat may prevent about one in six deaths of front seat passengers wearing seatbelts and use of seatbelts by front seat occupants may similarly reduce the risk of death for all rear seat passengers.

These findings make sense when you realize that, during a serious car crash, anything that is not bolted down or securely tethered becomes a dangerous projectile. Flying human bodies can apparently be quite lethal.

From the land of the laughing

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No, go find something real to be outraged about, believe me their are far grander and greater causes than this!
.

Not many. These are basic freedoms that have been taken away. They are undermining democracy slowly but surely and telling you as usual you are to stupid to protect youreself and so let the government do it for you. This is the grass roots of the fight to remain free. Compared to the 50s we are living a police state and I am dammned sick and tired of it. The governent has gotten its tentacles into every aspect of life.