The U.S and the wrold

[Strike For The South]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin As Katrina rumbles onward and parts of the south are underwater some foreigners (none on this board) have seen this as time to tell the US we brought this on ourselves by energy consumption and thereby causing the greenhouse effect. Yes people are dying and losing loved ones and all some people can do is bitch. Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

[Slyspy]

Point 1 is clearly a matter of scale. The natural disaster is less devastating and the country hit by it more able to deal with it (warnings, evacuations, planning, infrastructure, resources etc etc). So you get sympathy and nothing else.

As for the global warming thing well who can say? I certainly cannot and neither can most forumites (or experts in the field even) so I would ignore them.

[_Martyr_]

Dito, except to add... what could anyone really offer the US in this situation except sympathy and wellwishes?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Maybe we should have done what Germany did to us now when the Tsunami hit asia, blame them for not being energy efficant. How many nations would embargo us?

[Papewaio]

Well maybe more illegal immigrant constructions workers to rebuild the city and make bigger levies?

Seriously the Tsunami killed over 150,000 people, the count is between 175 and 250 thousand people. That is 3 orders of magnitude larger.

Also there was a major amount of finger pointing at those nations lack of early warning systems.

[Red Harvest]

strike for the south,

I understand the frustration. Right now I don't know what other countries can even send us. Heck, I don't even know what is needed. The main problem right now is access and lack of a power grid as well as flooding that is still present.

Chavez did make some statement today about providing heating oil--talk about an unlikely source of aid. This might not make sense to some, but there is concern that heating oil (which was going to be tight) will be too tight this winter with the refinery outages. It is at least a reasonable gesture.

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

[Redleg]

strike for the south,

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

So lets blame George Bush for not signing a treaty that Congress would never ratify in the first place. Anyone remember another treaty that was signed by a President but never ratified.

Kyoto does not address one of the biggest threats - the cut and slash of Rain Forests - but lets just blame the United States because its easier.

Yea right.

[Soulforged]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin As Katrina rumbles onward and parts of the south are underwater some foreigners (none on this board) have seen this as time to tell the US we brought this on ourselves by energy consumption and thereby causing the greenhouse effect. Yes people are dying and losing loved ones and all some people can do is bitch. Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

Well i know how you might be feeling because something of the same happened here arround 2002, and we didn't received much outsiders help. USA appears to be the center of the world, for good and for bad words.

The thing about global warming, after seeing Penn & Teller's, i really don't eat it, is not a scientific certainty so blaming any country on bringing it upon themselves is stupidity. Even so i do think that your country is way more capable that almost all the rest to help themselves, both economicaly and in personal capacity, so i don't see the need for help. But in some point you need it i'm sure that you'll have it.

[PanzerJaeger]

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

Yes, all our problems are George Bush's fault.

Ignoring the fact that it really isnt the place of the president to sign a treaty that wasnt ratified by congress, American jobs and the economy are more important than a treaty of which the results are questionable at best. Just because something feels good - or makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - doesnt mean we should jump on board without taking broader perspectives into consideration.

Also, it has never been the American way to simply go along with the crowd. It is of great importance that we consider the effects of every treaty on ourselves and act on that consideration. Just because everyone else is doing it - whatever the current "it" happens to be - doesnt mean it is the right thing to do.

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Also there was a major amount of finger pointing at those nations lack of early warning systems.

And at the US becasue we were somehow responsible for that.

Crazed Rabbit

[Papewaio]

I agree the Kyoto treaty should not be signed until we understand things better.

Also the role of trees as carbon sinks is debatable...

[Aenlic]

It seems to me that other countries should be wary of signing treaties with the U.S. anyway. After all, we didn't manage to abide by a single treaty we signed with native tribes until 1930. We broke every treaty we signed with them prior to that. Not a great track record. Add the ABM treaty to that and one might get the idea that the U.S. has more respect for used toilet paper than its treaty obligations.

[Advo-san]

I agree the Kyoto treaty should not be signed until we understand things better.

Also the role of trees as carbon sinks is debatable...

I hope our respected mod is kidding...

[PanzerJaeger]

Wow, while PJ and KoA are willing to blame 'Europe/Chirac/Schroeder/France/Germany/Islam/Palestinians/whatever' as soon as something bad happens on this earth, they can't stand that some people blame US for screwing up our environment ?

Now thats not true at all.

[Papewaio]

I hope our respected mod is kidding...

Tongue in cheek at the same time I think we should be doing more research into the causes and effects.

As for Carbon Sinks:

I am referring to a few studies that show that trees will only absorb their standard load of carbon. Increased carbon in the atmosphere will not lead to individual trees absorbing more carbon. So forests will not automatically suck up the extra carbon. More vegetation is required... or microbes.

[Soulforged]

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

Oh i see. . Sure go USA.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Before people go off on a rant, if you include private aid which I've seen estimates at ~twice the level of public aid, that still puts you nowhere near the top, and that is assuming that only the US has private aid.

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

[Productivity]

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

If we work on ~$19B of public aid, I'm struggling to work out where the other $160B of private aid is coming from given that only ~$34B of private aid can actually be detected.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/082102N.html

Indeed, when making an attempt to adjust for how useful the aid is, the US consistently ranks at the bottom of the pile.

http://www.cgdev.org/files/3646_file_WP_67_Revised.pdf

I'm not trying to bash the US here, just don't kid yourself about how great your aid really is.

[Productivity]

“Private international giving by Americans is over three and one-half times that of U.S. government foreign assistance,”

So will you revise the following down to 3.5 instead of 10?

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

ddressing questions concerning American giving abroad, Adelman called the standard measure of U.S. foreign assistance “outdated” and “flawed.” The standard measure of foreign aid, which ranks the United States last in terms of the percentage of its Gross National Income, grossly underestimates the total amount of U.S. foreign assistance, she said.

Ok, so let's assume that total US aid is 4.5 times that of it's public aid (ie. 3.5public aid + 1public aid). That puts the US in the position of giving 0.72 of it's GDP as aid. Great, good number, good level etc. However, it is still not the highest level in teh world, as SFTS had previously asserted. There are still at least five countries giving more in public aid alone, than the US is giving throuh public aid combined with private aid.

The only time the US manages to come top is in absolute numbers, which quite frankly it should. It's the worlds largest economy by a long way. I'm not meaning to bash the US, it's just the original assertion by SFTS is incorrect in anything other than a useless measure.

[Soulforged]

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

Well there's many foundaments for the hatred. But this sentence of yours may explain some of them.

Sure just take a pill or two man your sickness will pass with the time.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well there's many foundaments for the hatred.

I get it, you hate the US! Ive understood that since Gawain's "Greatest Military Organization in the World" thread in the monestary. Never do you let a post go by that even casually admits a positive about the US.

I simply dont care enough to respond to each and every piece of bait you throw in the lake, although I couldnt resist this one.

Truth is, people like you are a dime a dozen once you leave the states, and there are plenty here too. You see nothing good in America and thats your perogative. Whether thats based in secret jealousy, feelings of national inadequacy, or whatever little psycho-babblings that make you feel the way you do is beyond me.. but ive seen it all.

I learned a long time ago to simply ignore anti-americans. Such feelings are planted and nourished since birth, and only living here and knowing the people can change them in most people. My mother still hasnt changed. She espouses everything not american and misses the "old days" in Germany when we were about 1/10 as successful as we are now.

[Soulforged]

I'll appear forever if you say stupidities like that.

I see good in USA (even the fact that you call yourselves americans and your country America gets on my nervs) and i'm sure if i visited it i'll see a lot more. But that doesn't intitle you to call your country a bastion of freedom, but the most absurd is normalcy!!! My hatred and that of everyone that you profile as "haters" doesn't come from the nothing, it comes from the news we see, it comes from the images we see and the things we read. Maybe you can't see it from there but your country's policies have made much wrong at least in this areas (i would say the world, but). And your country still believes itself as the bringer of democracy, just the simple idea of throwing down foreing governments and replacing it by one elected by yours goes against freedom.
One of the reasons i hate gringos is that kind of statement. But anyway i'll not let this discussion continue because it has little to do with the thread. Just admit you made a mistake and that your views are the biased ones.

[Red Harvest]

Yes, all our problems are George Bush's fault.

No, more the fault of his misguided followers who voted for him. I pointed out the mess he created with his snubbing of Kyoto. Cry foul if you like, but I did my part to get it right, and still am.

Ignoring the fact that it really isnt the place of the president to sign a treaty that wasnt ratified by congress, American jobs and the economy are more important than a treaty of which the results are questionable at best. Just because something feels good - or makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - doesnt mean we should jump on board without taking broader perspectives into consideration.

Also, it has never been the American way to simply go along with the crowd. It is of great importance that we consider the effects of every treaty on ourselves and act on that consideration. Just because everyone else is doing it - whatever the current "it" happens to be - doesnt mean it is the right thing to do.

It is the president's job to try to lead the country down the CORRECT path, instead of off into the ditch. The anti-Kyoto crowd is typical of his short sighted support. What he and you are doing is DAMAGING to our economy and jobs. Short term thinking usually is, and you guys represent that in all its glory. I don't even believe Kyoto would have even weakened us short term and certainly not long term. It would sure as heck be a lot cheaper than many things we are doing to support our guzzle-it-up approach. I do believe oil would be cheaper today for one, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year, and 10 years from now.

Why should the rest of the world be mad? It effects all of them when Dubya and his supporters decide to think selfish short term. It is rather hypocritical to be calling for international efforts in one area and ignoring them in another.

[Redleg]

No, more the fault of his misguided followers who voted for him. I pointed out the mess he created with his snubbing of Kyoto. Cry foul if you like, but I did my part to get it right, and still am.

Crying foul by pointing out President Bush errors about not signing the Kyoto treaty is ignoring about 100 years of past adminstrations not worrying about the environment at all.

It is the president's job to try to lead the country down the CORRECT path, instead of off into the ditch. The anti-Kyoto crowd is typical of his short sighted support. What he and you are doing is DAMAGING to our economy and jobs.

Well show me where the Kyoto Treaty is the correct path - which I don't believe it is when it completely disregards half of the world, it ignores the slash and burn deforestation of the Rain Forests, and many other issues that are not fixing the environment. What the Kyoto does is attempt to halt the already developed countries increase in emmissions - but does nothing to give get developing countries into developing sound environment policies either. The United States can do more to control or emmissions but signing the Kyoto Treaty is just giving a pass to countries that also need to control their emmissions and stop the massive deforestation of the Rain Forests.

Short term thinking usually is, and you guys represent that in all its glory. I don't even believe Kyoto would have even weakened us short term and certainly not long term. It would sure as heck be a lot cheaper than many things we are doing to support our guzzle-it-up approach. I do believe oil would be cheaper today for one, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year, and 10 years from now.

Yes indeed and that is all the Kyoto Treaty is a short term approach on the problem, not a long term fix.

Why should the rest of the world be mad? It effects all of them when Dubya and his supporters decide to think selfish short term. It is rather hypocritical to be calling for international efforts in one area and ignoring them in another.

Yes it is - especially given the way many European Countries also show their hypocrisy on the issue.

[Productivity]

Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver

Actually, adjusting for economy size, only Italy is worse.

Before people go off on a rant, if you include private aid which I've seen estimates at ~twice the level of public aid, that still puts you nowhere near the top, and that is assuming that only the US has private aid.

[Ronin]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

The US isn´t bangladesh or sumatra or some small country that gets overwelmed by a desaster like this.....

I do´t see how a country that can expend the manpower to go invading other countries for no good reason would have a problem dealing with this situation....you´ve got the manpower in your military forces...put them to use.

[Ser Clegane]

I have to say that I am actually rather dissappointed about how this thread and the "50" thread developed.

People in Louisiana and Mississippi are still struggling for their life and the situation currently seems to be far from being under control

The first priority should be to save the lives and ease the pain of the affected.
I am sure that the US wil be able to take care about most of the situation without outside help (in terms of logistics as well as in terms).

That does not mean that we (meaning other countries) should not be willing and ready to offer our help and to quickly provide it if the necessity arises.

This can be in the form of equipment and professionals from government and non-government organizations and in the form of donations from each person individually (I did not forget the willingness of US people to offer help and support during the flood in Germany and the heat-wave that hit France 2 years ago, IIRC)

When the situation is under control, it would be time to discuss if there is a way to avoid such disasters and/or if there is any sense in finger-pointing.

EDIT: I see that bmolsson shares my thoughts regarding this

[Bartix]

UN has offered help.
US has not said it needs any.

[Red Harvest]

UN has offered help.
US has not said it needs any.

Blue hats for looting patrols?

[Bartix]

Blue hats for looting patrols?

Pretty soon, you will come begging for those blue hats.

Good idea if US does not need UN assistance:
Accept UN aid any way, and pay back similar amount to UN to go towards US debt to UN!! Good will all around