The U.S and the wrold

[Bartix]

UN has offered help.
US has not said it needs any.

[Red Harvest]

UN has offered help.
US has not said it needs any.

Blue hats for looting patrols?

[Adrian II]

They're more than welcome to turn down this burdensome aid we dole out. More than welcome.

Come on, you know who's helping whom in most overseas development efforts, whether American, European or Japanese. The Malawi case is typical and has all the trappings of modern 'aid', including flying in pencils and notepads from the U.S. instead of buying them locally.

[Ser Clegane]

Two things I just came across:

On help from Europe

Commentary on the ugliness of "playing" politics in the wake of desasters
(Trittin has always been a self-righteous moron - I won't miss him after the next elections...)

[Proletariat]

Okay, for anyone I missed, thanks to you too.

(Who really thought that either Austrailia or England would leave them hi and dry?)

Especially Malawi.

[Proletariat]

Kristina Decker, from Germany's Christian aid group Caritas, concurred, saying help from Germany might even cause more harm than good. "America has a strong army and are well equipped for disaster relief," she said. "It makes no sense for us to go in and try to help. What really would we do? They have enough personnel to handle the crisis alone. Our workers might just be in the way. Of course, if they asked us to come in, we would. But that is not the case so far."

Isn't this kind of diplomacy what W gets slammed for? They're still looking at this as Americans and not human victims. Just show a little compassion rather then the "Well, they'll figure it out. They're big boys." way out. Sheesh.

If Germany ran out of sauerkraut, sure, they could rectify the situation themselves, but I'd hope the international community would air-drop cabbage in a way that made that fateful day in Dresden look like clear, blue skies.

[Aurelian]

This thread was at least a day too early. Just before going to bed last night, the local news here was running down offers of aid from a number of other countries. This morning, we have the following stories:

Canada Ready to Help
Germany says ready to help U.S. with Katrina
France May Mobilize Relief from Caribbean

I'm sure that quite a few other countries will be offering relief. Those were just the ones I thought of and Google-searched.

It's too early to be criticizing other countries for not providing aid when we also have this story:

Washington Prepares Aid Package for Katrina

Since our own country is just getting relief efforts together, you can't really blast others for not having done anything yet.

[Proletariat]

Since that was undoubtedly aimed at me, I'd like to point out that I prematurely ripped the Fed, too.

[Aurelian]

No, that wasn't aimed at you. I was just pointing out that the thread is a little early. Most of the stories about aid from other countries are just starting to pop up, and they all mention that they're waiting on, or working with, the Feds to see what is needed.

[Aenlic]

Timing has a lot to do with things as well. While not entirely accurate, the old law of threes is still a decent guildeline. A human can survive (on average) 3 minutes without oxygen, 3 hours without warmth, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. We're hitting the 3 days limit right now. People are going to begin dying now as a result of lack of fresh water; or else they'll succumb to temptation and drink contaminated water and end up the victim of poisoning or disease.

In light of the above, there isn't much that foreign aid can do in this situation. Even the ships leaving Norfolk (the Iwo Jima and a couple of amphibious dock ships) and Baltimore (the hospital ship Comfort) won't reach the area in time to mitigate the fresh water crisis. Foreign aid might help later in the process, when more access to affected areas is available; but by then the U.S. has the resources necessary to do the same job quicker on its own. I think it will merely be a situation of the U.S. not asking for additional aid; because it doesn't need the aid. They'll most certainly still offer the aid, however.

Those who are making claims of "we helped them, but they won't help us" are just engaging in typical American arrogance, chest-thumping and melodrama. It isn't in the least bit true.

[Slyspy]

I rather suspect that most countries and agencies will wait to be asked in this case. Firstly the wealth and resources of the USA should be able to deal with all but the most technical aspects. Secondly there was much criticism after the tsunami that aid was disorganised, poorly selected and badly distributed. This was mainly due to the lack of aformentioned cash, resources and infrastructure in the stricken countries but also due to their lack of a suitably organised central authority to coordinate the relief efforts.

[Don Corleone]

Those who are making claims of "we helped them, but they won't help us" are just engaging in typical American arrogance, chest-thumping and melodrama. It isn't in the least bit true.

That's a bit harsh. I think what SftS was trying to say was there was a tone of sympathy for victims of other disasters that seems to be lacking here. I disagree with his views, as it would seem from the backroom alone, those without sympathy are a distinct minority. But when something is that offensive, it carries a lot more volume than the simple of number of voices would indicate.

That being said, yes, I totally agree. There's really nothing anybody can do that isn't already being done. Well, one exception. I would give those additional national guard units 'shoot to kill' orders for whoever these snipers are that are shooting at evacuation/rescue parties. Am I the only one that's beginning to suspect these snipers aren't locals?

[_Martyr_]

People are sniping evacuation teams? WTF? Thats pretty sick! WHo do you think they are?

[Don Corleone]

Well, call me a paranoid, crackpot psycho, but we haven't exactly guarded our borders very tightly for the past 4 years. I'm not claiming I have any proof or that my mind is made up or anything. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a terrorist cell headed down to the Big Easy once a confirmed hit by Katrina was known.

[_Martyr_]

I dont know? It seems a little tinfoil-hattish to start pointing at terrorists... no? I would say more sick weirdos a la the Washington Snipers or something like that.

And what do you mean you havent been guarding your boarders well?? You obviously havent tried getting through US immigration recently... even on an Irish passport. Pretty extreme.

[Don Corleone]

I dont know? It seems a little tinfoil-hattish to start pointing at terrorists... no? I would say more sick weirdos a la the Washington Snipers or something like that.

And what do you mean you havent been guarding your boarders well?? You obviously havent tried getting through US immigration recently... even on an Irish passport. Pretty extreme.

I know it sounds tin-foil hattish. I just cannot come up with a good reason for large numbers of snipers. Two or three, sure, but from the sounds of it, they're popping up all over the city, and are pretty well coordinated. I just don't know what to think, and honestly, an Al Queda cell is less scary then believing large numbers of Americans could be so cruel and stupid.

And I said we weren't doing a good job of it, not that we weren't doing it at all. The appearance of doing something is much, much more important than doing what needs to be done, when it comes to this issue. The problem you're facing is that you're actually following our laws. The same laws that tell the TSA they have to search an elderly woman in a wheelchair at the exact same rate as a man flying in from Syria with no permanent address given upon arrival. If you want to get into the USA without any difficulty, simply fly to Mexico or Canada first, then hike/drive/boat on in.

[Red Harvest]

Well, call me a paranoid, crackpot psycho, but we haven't exactly guarded our borders very tightly for the past 4 years. I'm not claiming I have any proof or that my mind is made up or anything. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a terrorist cell headed down to the Big Easy once a confirmed hit by Katrina was known.

If so, they have a rapid response efficiency that far outstrips our own nation's. Just getting to the levies during/after the storm would have been nearly impossible.Why send in terrorists to do what the storm would do for them? Doesn't make sense.

Those levies shouldn't have held. Katrina's drift to the East saved them, and that was in the last few hours when travel was not possible. I was SHOCKED (and relieved) to hear that they had not failed during the initial surge. I honestly believed New Orleans was going to completely flood during the storm, with about 100,000+ casualties, instead they were on the weak side of the storm.

We got lucky, the hit should have been much worse. You are being fooled by the focus on New Orleans. That is just part of the picture. Whole communities all around no longer exist. While many of the people survived there are no homes. Some of these were communities of 20,000+.

[Ronin]

I know it sounds tin-foil hattish. I just cannot come up with a good reason for large numbers of snipers. Two or three, sure, but from the sounds of it, they're popping up all over the city, and are pretty well coordinated. I just don't know what to think, and honestly, an Al Queda cell is less scary then believing large numbers of Americans could be so cruel and stupid.

there are stupid and cruel people in every society....if you put them in the right situation...pretty extreme conditions from the flooding, a certain sense of lawnlessness because of the evacuation of the town, and add to that large amounts of guns in the hands of the general population and the crackpots are gonna act up unfortunatelly.

[Don Corleone]

You're misunderstanding my point Red. I know things are as bad, if not worse East of New Orleans. Hell, I think they announced "Biloxi is no more". There's a lot of damage & casualties we haven't even begun to hear of yet. In this thread, I was speaking specificially about the snipers blocking the relief efforts. Who would do such a thing? Sadly and quite frighteningly, it seems that they're growing in number. As I said, maybe Al Queda is a boogeyman I'm using that's a lot less scary than the truth.

[yesdachi]

but we haven't exactly guarded our borders very tightly for the past 4 years.

Our borders have never been guarded tightly. If anything they have been guarded tighter over that past 4 years than ever before.

[Don Corleone]

Correct Yesdachi (cool name btw, took me a while to get it). We are doing better then we were before. But we are still a LONG, LONG way from good. They estimate that 35,000 illegal immigrants enter the country every month. Are you willing to bet your health & livelihood on the belief that America's enemies haven't figured this out yet?

[yesdachi]

Correct Yesdachi (cool name btw, took me a while to get it). We are doing better then we were before. But we are still a LONG, LONG way from good. They estimate that 35,000 illegal immigrants enter the country every month. Are you willing to bet your health & livelihood on the belief that America's enemies haven't figured this out yet?

I agree. We are nowhere near as secure as we sometimes think we are. I think that the Coast Guard is doing great things and on official byways (roads and airports) we are doing well also but there are soooo many other ways to get things or people into the country it really is scary. I wouldn’t be opposed if our war on terror included some of our military playing a larger role protecting our boarders. At least until a better system can be put in place.

Thanks about the name

[Papewaio]

One: Most of the worlds governments have responded quicker then the USAs own congress.

Two: In a desparate situation people do desparate things. The snipers are in all likely hood local nutters not some sort of Al Qaeda cell. What next AQ under the beds?... making burqas out of bedsheets would be the logic behind that I suppose... so blue bedsheets you are a Taliban supporter?

Three: Get small boats in there and start shipping people out. If the UK can do that in WWII when Germany took over France, I'm sure the US can do it without the threat of enemy aircraft bearing down.

Four: No border patrol that I know of can stop hurricanes.

Five: Out of those 35,000 illegal immigrants a month a whole lot more are going to be rebuilding the city and its levies then taking pot shots at the locals.

[ichi]

Bush's idealogy is more important to him than any concern over people. He might act if it looks like his poll numbers are dropping. He'll need a lot of spinsters to blame this on Clinton.

ichi

[PanzerJaeger]

Bush's idealogy is more important to him than any concern over people. He might act if it looks like his poll numbers are dropping. He'll need a lot of spinsters to blame this on Clinton.

I tried out a lot of responses and the only one that works is:

[Aurelian]

Wow.

It turns out that the real reason we haven't seen any international aid yet is that the US government has been turning down offers of help.

Apparently, Canada has a specialized urban search and rescue team all suited up and ready to go from Vancouver... and a 200 person Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART ) ready to send. However, the Dept. of Homeland Security and the administration won't give them permission to deploy.

When Jamaica offered help, it was told by the US embassy there that: "The United States Government is not yet requesting international assistance at this time."

Yeesh. Do you suppose it has sunk in yet that this is an actual emergency? You know, one that requires immediate action?

[Papewaio]

When people die because of lack of timely decisions it is either Hubris or Incompetence.

[sharrukin]

They are refusing Russian assistance as well.




You might think something like this could be of use in the current situation!

[Adrian II]

You might think something like this could be of use in the current situation!

You mean the Toyota pickup in the background? That is the best car ever made, I bet it does better in these circumstances than many a military vehicle.

[Red Harvest]

I don't think they are ready for them yet. They seem to be having trouble getting people deployed, (ones that we already have available.) And the security situation in New Orleans makes the problem much greater. I think they are going to have to sort out the organizational and logistical mess before they can put outside help to good use.

The damage to the roads, and the nature of the terrain make it very difficult to get folks into many areas. That is partially why the assessment has been so slow and spotty. It shares this characteristic with the tsunami devastation of course (hopefully to a far lesser degree, but similar nonetheless.)