Was WW2 in Europe Justified?

[PanzerJaeger]

After a loss in WW1, Germany had the Treaty of Versailles forced upon them. In this treaty, Germany was made to take full responsibility for WW1, pay virtually never-ending reparations to many European nations(mostly France), and cede land that was German - including Prussia - to several nations. Also, Germany was restricted from having anything resembling a strong military.

It was clear through the writings and opinions of the leaders of the time that Germany was to be made weak for an indefinate amount of time.

Germany was essentially punished for fulfilling her alliance obligations just as France, Russia, and Britain had done.

To me, this justifies the attack on Poland, which would not cede areas that had a majority German populace such as Prussia that were unfairly given to them. The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany.

Finally to Russia. After the revolution the victorious allies sent troops to fight the communist forces. After that failed, they maintained a strong anti-communist policy. It has always been the policy of the Western World to fight communism wherever it can. Was the war against Russia was any worse than the proxy wars of the Cold War?

This topic should be separated from the evils of Hitler and relates only to the foreign policy of the time. Was Germany entitled to attack nations that had a stated policy of keeping the country weak? How would you feel if your neighboring countries kept your country militarily and financially weak simply because your country lost a war it did not start? Was the response toward the Versailles enforcers justified after what they did to Germany?

[Adrian II]

This topic should be separated from the evils of Hitler and relates only to the foreign policy of the time. Was Germany entitled to attack nations that had a stated policy of keeping the country weak?

Sure. Just separate the topic from the evils of the Soviet Union, colonialism, economic depression, the arms industry and the Spanish Flu and it all becomes crystal clear.

[RabidGibbon]

What did Czechoslovakia ever do to Germany? The Munich agreement seeded to Hitler all those areas of that country he demanded. A few months later he decided to invade the rest of that country.

IIRC Yugoslavia committed the hideous crime of saying to the germans "Where not your allies anymore."

For this they where invaded and introduced to Nazi Rule.

Greece of course provoked Nazi Germany at every chance it got and by refusing to give in to Italys purely aggressive demands for territory was just asking to be attacked and annexed by Germany.

Denmark and Norway too where notable aggressors in the second world war and truely deserved to be invaded.

And to add to all this, the only reason the British Empire entered the first world war was because Germany decided the best way to invade France was through Neutral Belgium. They also launched unrestricted submarine warfare (ie: We think your sailing to an allied port so where going to plug a torpeado or two in you)
Compared to the RN equivelant of we'll escort you into harbour and buy your cargo off you, and don't do it again.

Oh, and lets not forget that Austria-Hungary Invaded Serbia (and thus sparked off WW1) for reasons that were about as well founded as Michael Jacksons excuses for sleeping with small boys, and Germany decided to "defend" its allies by attacking everyone within range.

EDIT: WOW, in the time it took me to type this 4 other people have posted. Apologies for any repetition.

[Strike For The South]

Ah yes because two wrongs make a right and attacking nations because they did something unfair to you is completely justified not to mention the Nazis didn't go to war to right the wrongs they wanted power and an aryan race so no they are still the aggressor and no amount of BS will ever change that

[Adrian II]

Ah yes because two wrongs make a right and attacking nations because they did something unfair to you is completely justified not to mention the Nazis didn't go to war to right the wrongs they wanted power and an aryan race so no they are still the aggressor and no amount of BS will ever change that

I might as well erase my own post. Strike for the South indeed.

[Redleg]

After a loss in WW1, Germany had the Treaty of Versailles forced upon them. In this treaty, Germany was made to take full responsibility for WW1, pay virtually never-ending reparations to many European nations(mostly France), and cede land that was German - including Prussia - to several nations. Also, Germany was restricted from having anything resembling a strong military.

True

It was clear through the writings and opinions of the leaders of the time that Germany was to be made weak for an indefinate amount of time.

Again True

Germany was essentially punished for fulfilling her alliance obligations just as France, Russia, and Britain had done.

Again true

To me, this justifies the attack on Poland, which would not cede areas that had a majority German populace such as Prussia that were unfairly given to them. The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany.

Wrong - Germany signed the Agreement that ended the war - they by treaty had to fulfil their obligations under it. Was it done to punish the Germans - you betcha - but Germany placed a willing signature on the document.

Finally to Russia. After the revolution the victorious allies sent troops to fight the communist forces. After that failed, they maintained a strong anti-communist policy. It has always been the policy of the Western World to fight communism wherever it can. Was the war against Russia was any worse than the proxy wars of the Cold War?

History shows that the German invasion of Russia was worse then the Proxy wars of the Cold War with one exception. However while Germany attacked Russia for many reasons - the systemic killing of civilians by execution because of their religion and race - ruined any legal and moral standing of the German invasion of Russia.

This topic should be separated from the evils of Hitler and relates only to the foreign policy of the time.

That has the smell of revisionist history I am afraid. You can not seperate the evils of Hilter's Regime from WW2 since alot of them happened in the conduct of the war. Hilter killed many civilians based upon religion or race - in his conquest of other nations. Yes conquest of others not for the return of German lands to Germany - if it was only about getting back German Land - the war would have never happened. Hilter had the allies on the ropes through posturing - Germany did not need to attack Poland to get Prussia back.

Was Germany entitled to attack nations that had a stated policy of keeping the country weak?

Only if those policies were in violation of an established treaty. Germany willing signed the armstice at the end of WW1 - so they were obligated to follow the treaty through its completion.

How would you feel if your neighboring countries kept your country militarily and financially weak simply because your country lost a war it did not start?

Hold on - Germany while didn't start the war - it was Austria and Russia. Germany chose to attack into France.

Was the response toward the Versailles enforcers justified after what they did to Germany?

No - Germany lost the war.

Ask yourself this question - was Iraq justified to ignore the ceasefire agreement in which they willing signed to end the first conflict?

or ask it this way. Was the United States justified in enforcing the ceasefire conditions imposed on Iraq - a ceasefire Iraq willing signed?


It will help clear up any thoughts about Germany being justified in attacking Poland.

[Papewaio]

If the war went long enough they would have been Justified in nuking every German city.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hold on - Germany while didn't start the war - it was Austria and Russia. Germany chose to attack into France.

Wrong. Austria declared war on Serbia, then Russia declared war on Austria.

[Brenus]

“On the 1871 issue I don´t recall the french having to pay for several generations, so it might not have been a nice thing to do, but it was bearable for France, while Germany after WW1 had to pay for a much longer timespan and couldn´t even come up to the monthly expectations in the first time”:
You are right, in fact the French paid even faster than Bismarck intended. But it wasn’t his plan. The plan was to put France in misery. However, 1871 was one nation against another nation, so the war damages were less important. 1870-1871 war was wanted by both Germany (Bismarck) and France (Napoleon III) for deferent reason: Bismarck wanted to nited Germany under Prussia, and Napoleon wanted to reinforce his weakening II Empire.

Well, the German didn’t pay for generation (one generation is 30 years), but the legacy of WW1 stays more (until nowadays, to be true). And as said in previous intervention, the Treaty was renegotiated. Was is funny, somewhere is that the Allies gave to Hitler what they refused to the Weimar…

And Germany declared war against France, whatever the reasons. And invaded a neutral country…

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time on refuting the revisionist nazi nonsense in this thread.

This thread is asking people's opinion about Versailles and how it contributed to the lead up to war. Were the feelings of revenge justified?

The war was fought over 60 years ago, there is no reason why it cannot be discussed in an adult manner without all the immature name calling.

Hitler did not simply gain power on the strength of his rhetoric. He played on the feelings and emotions of a great number of the German people. Some of those feelings were justified and some were not. A discussion of those feelings is not revisionist, nazi, or nonsense.

[The Stranger]

oh yes most feelings were justified but that does not justify the war. if youre son is killed you can justify it that you will hate that man, that does not however justify your act if you would kill him

[Slyspy]

This thread is asking people's opinion about Versailles and how it contributed to the lead up to war. Were the feelings of revenge justified?

The war was fought over 60 years ago, there is no reason why it cannot be discussed in an adult manner without all the immature name calling.

Hitler did not simply gain power on the strength of his rhetoric. He played on the feelings and emotions of a great number of the German people. Some of those feelings were justified and some were not. A discussion of those feelings is not revisionist, nazi, or nonsense.

No it is not. Read your first post again. You ask, in essence, whether the war was justified on the basis of Versaille, not whether feeling of revenge were justified.

Besides which you have a reputation as a Third Reich fanboy and I for one look forward to threads such as "Were the SS really that bad, after all they really loved their dear old mums".

Fact is that by the outbreak of war Versailles was dead and the balance of power had shifted to Germany. There is reason to believe that Hitler could have got his more reasonable demands (eg the German territory given to Poland) through negotiation. Poland's allies would likely have sold her down the river. However Hitler's treatment of Czechoslovakia shows that this was never really going to be an option on his behalf.

[Beirut]

To me, this justifies the attack on Poland, which would not cede areas that had a majority German populace such as Prussia that were unfairly given to them. The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany.

I see...

Well, thank God for people like my old man who did not share your rather... unique, point of view, and were ready, willing, and able to go over there and kick Nazi ass all the way back to Berlin.

Proud to be a son of a WWII Canadian war veteran!

[Devastatin Dave]

Panzer, i hope that you are going to draw an anology to this because as of now, I'm not seeing where your are going here.

If you are actually making the arguement that Germany was justified with its agression, then I'm very dissappointed.

[Papewaio]

If Germany was justified then so why Saddam in invading Kuwait...

==== My editor in chief said to change it or get a new job ===

[Steppe Merc]

Um, I agree with everyone else. I'm not a big fan of war, but when someone's main objective is taking over the world while commiting horrible atrocity's, that is pretty much all the justification is needed. I mean, if Germany had done nothing other than putting innocents in concentration camps, it may well be justified.
I mean, the Nazis were not nice.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Sort of...

While Germany did have the right to tell the Allied Powers to go **** a monkey for the treaty of versailles, the invasion and conquest of Poland really didn't need to happen.

[Devastatin Dave]

If Germany was justified then so why Saddam in invading Iraq...

Do you mean "If Germany was justified, then so was Saddam in invading Kuwaitt"? I didn't understand your meaning...

[Papewaio]

Do you mean "If Germany was justified, then so was Saddam in invading Kuwaitt"? I didn't understand your meaning...

Whoops... need more coffee.

[Shaka_Khan]

...The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany...

That's shocking to hear from a French-Canadian.
I agree that the Treaty of Versailles didn't help in preventing a war. Europe would've been better off without WWII.

[cegorach]

To me, this justifies the attack on Poland, which would not cede areas that had a majority German populace such as Prussia that were unfairly given to them. The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany.

EXCUSE ME !!! A majority of population ???

Give me your sources and I bash the man who wrote them

Overall about 1-1,5 million of Germans lived in Poland after 1918, the areas 'given' to Poland were almost always 80% or more Polish. There were only relatively small 'islands' of German population.

So was it unfair m8 or is it only our sources or wishfullthinking

[Brenus]

The Treaty of Versailles was signed because the German Armies, after invading a neutral country, attacked another one without provocations.
The treaty of Versailles was effectively a pay-back for the 1971 treaty, where France had to pay 2 billion of Gold Francs, in order to kick her out of the European game for 50 years, in Bismark’s mind.
The conditions of the 1871 peace treaty were humiliating, and the dismantlement and annexation of Alsace-Lorraine by Germany.
Georges Clemenceau was a politician who remembered that Germany was proclaimed in Versailles…
So, PzJg, if you want to claim that the treaty of Versailles was unjust, you have to take in consideration:
France and UK had to pay US for the weapons and material (sum which was entirely paid) for a war they didn’t start… So “Germany will pay”.
France was attacked. The German declared war upon France. So, in this case, yes Germany clearly started the war.
Neutral Belgium was attacked.
The major battle fields were in France and part of Belgium… Germany suffered no loses in term of industries, buildings, infrastructures. It is still impossible to cultivate some parts of Champagne because metal and explosives are too numerous…

The Germans ignored the treaty without consequences, they reamed, reoccupied the Ruhr without any consequences… The humiliation of Versailles came because the allies didn’t invaded Germany, the Germans didn’t thought they were defeated in battle (gave the myth of the Knife in the Back). That was one of the reason why during WW2, the allies bombed all the Germans cities. They couldn’t denied the defeat one time more…

For WW1, all nations were ready. Russians wanted to take revenge on their defeat against Japanese (Port Arthur and Tshushima), France wanted to take back Alsace-Lorraine, Austria-Hungary wanted to keep their protectorate in Bosnia, Serbia wanted to reunified all the Serbs in one territory, England was concerned by German Continental Power (She didn’t like it when it was French, won’t accept it from the Germans), Italy had territorial disputes with Austria…
Concerning the Winter War in Finland, the French sent Chasseurs Alpins and the 13 Demi-Brigade de Legion Etrangere to help Mennerheim. But the war ended before, so they were used latter in Narvik. After the defeat in 1940, the 13DBLE stayed in England and I think is the unit as such earning the title/decoration Compagnon de La Liberation.

Was WW2 justified: Well, had the Allies choice? For Germany, as the French recovered the humiliation of 1871, they could have done it. All the other claims and allegations made by Hitler (vital space, Aryan superiority, right for expansion, etc) are not good enough. Hitler chose the path of war and unfortunately the German voted for him. Ok, it was the last time they voted, and were not allowed to change their mind (that is the trouble when you vote for extremists).
In my mind, if the only justification for Germany (as legitimate one) was the Treaty of Versailles, no, the war wasn’t justified.

[bmolsson]

A point on the Chemical weapons usage. Wasn't the main reason for not using chemical weapons that they where unpredictable and not very efficient against military units ??

[Red Harvest]

A point on the Chemical weapons usage. Wasn't the main reason for not using chemical weapons that they where unpredictable and not very efficient against military units ??

Not from what I've read. It was primarily feared that the same weapons would be employed against the attacker. Apparently, German documents suggest that they didn't use their new discoveries for that reason. Chemical weapons were viewed with widespread disgust after WWI and the Geneva Protocol was signed by 16 nations to prohibit their use.

If the military command can prevent introduction of a weapon that will terrify their own men (assuming the enemy has the same) then they are likely to do so. It adds a layer of complexity to warfare to use chemical weapons, and it also makes it more difficult for the attacker to occupy the ground after the attack. I suspect it was "convenient" for everyone not to use chemical weapons as it has negative consequences on one's own forces as well.

[Husar]

France was attacked. The German declared war upon France. So, in this case, yes Germany clearly started the war.

Well, the German government asked France what they would do in case of a German war with Russia. The French responded along the lines that they would do what was in their best interest, leading the german government to think that France would fall into their back and to prevent this there was the "Schlieffen-Plan".

On the 1871 issue I don´t recall the french having to pay for several generations, so it might not have been a nice thing to do, but it was bearable for France, while Germany after WW1 had to pay for a much longer timespan and couldn´t even come up to the monthly expectations in the first time.

The 1871 war was wanted by Bismarck, but the French did their part by demanding a lot of things from Germany. So they and others did before WW1.

In my oppinion there were few if any good leaders in Germany after Bismarck until after WW2. And WW1 was wanted by other nations as well, they just knew how to play the victims and write history afterwards, but I agree that nothing of this justifies WW2.

The issue about Poland and Germany I see similar to Israel and Palestine. Territories changed very often in history and we should accept that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

To me, this justifies the attack on Poland, which would not cede areas that had a majority German populace such as Prussia that were unfairly given to them. The overly harsh punishment of Germany also justifies the crushing of France and the British in France, as they were the major enforcers of the unfair treatment of post-war Germany.

EXCUSE ME !!! A majority of population ???

Give me your sources and I bash the man who wrote them

Overall about 1-1,5 million of Germans lived in Poland after 1918, the areas 'given' to Poland were almost always 80% or more Polish. There were only relatively small 'islands' of German population.

So was it unfair m8 or is it only our sources or wishfullthinking

Sources?

Try www.Stormfront.org for revisionist sources. You'll find people there blaiming alternatively the pan-slavic onslaught on innocent Germany, Jewish conspirators, America the Jewish puppet state, French faggots or imperialist Britain for WWII.

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time on refuting the revisionist nazi nonsense in this thread.

[Red Peasant]

Sources?

Try www.Stormfront.org for revisionist sources. You'll find people there blaiming alternatively the pan-slavic onslaught on innocent Germany, Jewish conspirators, America the Jewish puppet state, French faggots or imperialist Britain for WWII.

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time on refuting the revisionist nazi nonsense in this thread.

Hear, hear.

Adolf Hitler certainly thought that the war (any war!) was justified. No nancy liberal quibbling or moral relativism for that guy, a proper right-winger.

Maybe some Germans just can't get over the fact that Germany lost...again. Hence the resurrection of topics like this on a regular basis.

I suppose the effect is in some way cathartic for these poor German victims of Allied aggression and imperialism. Hopefully they don't think that they have 'unfinished business'.

[Papewaio]

Hi Red, Havn't seen you posting for awhile?

What have you been up to?

[Red Peasant]

Hi Red, Havn't seen you posting for awhile?

What have you been up to?

Hi Pap.

Thought I'd drop in for old time's sake. Glad to see you're thriving. Hope married life is treating you well.

I've been very busy with my MA, so not much time for the frivolities of the Org, though the dissertation will be finished and handed in soon. Then back to the real world of jobs and such. How depressing....I much prefer to be a student!

Have to get the PhD funding application in asap........

[Ser Clegane]

Maybe some Germans just can't get over the fact that Germany lost...again. Hence the resurrection of topics like this on a regular basis.

I take exception to the use of the plural in the context of this forum