Made-in-Israel Paper Cups Used in Saudi Hospital

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do they have a lot of women bank robbers there? Or at least fake women bank robbers? How can you have such a large part of your population going around in disquise?

[Goofball]

Saudi dress codes forbid any display of nudity

Actually, Canadian and American "dress codes" also forbid any display of nudity.

Notice any difference with Afghanistan? I don't.

That's because you've never been there. Showing a couple of women wearing veils doesn't mean that all Saudi women wear burqas.

I will acknowledge however, that my experience may be a little dated since I haven't been there since about 1989. I can say that when I lived there, women were not required to cover their faces in public. The ones who did either did so by choice or (more likely) because their husbands made them.

Again, I am not trying to hold the Saudis up as paragons of female empowerment, but they are (or were) very far from the Taliban regime in Afghanistan when I lived there.

As far as the story about the schoolgirls goes it sounds like somebody is in a bit of shit over that one, but it also sounds like the country has taken a decidedly more conservative (and crazy) stance since my time there.

Your anecdotal evidence is just excoriating with insight, really it is.

And you really should understand what big words like "excoriating" mean before you try to use them in a sentence. Using a $5 word incorrectly is just a waste of money.

But when you get done sharing your life experiences could you comment on the Amnesty link?

Erm...

Psst...

*whispers*

Hey, Prole, you know what kind of evidence your Amnesty story is?

I'll give you a hint:

It starts with "a" and ends with "necdotal."

The only difference is that my anecdotes were the result of firsthand experience, and yours was the result of sitting at your computer and Googling for tales of other peoples' experiences.

At any rate, you're missing my point. Women in Saudi Arabia are definitely not treated as equals. But they can (or could) wear western clothing and show their faces on the street when I lived there. Yes, they had to make sure their arms and legs were covered, and that no cleavage was showing, but they were not forced to wear burqas. You can argue that with me all day, but it won't make a bit of difference.

And you know why?

Because I've seen it firsthand and you haven't, so Google away my friend...

[Adrian II]

Actually, Canadian and American "dress codes" also forbid any display of nudity.

No 'large differences' there either, huh?

[Proletariat]

And you really should understand what big words like "excoriating" mean before you try to use them in a sentence. Using a $5 word incorrectly is just a waste of money.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=excoriating

As in, you just tore layers of untruth away before my eyes. Apparently this is a big word for you. Maybe you were afraid of getting a headache from looking it up before you decide to wax sententious.

At any rate, you're missing my point. Women in Saudi Arabia are definitely not treated as equals. But they can (or could) wear western clothing and show their faces on the street when I lived there. Yes, they had to make sure their arms and legs were covered, and that no cleavage was showing, but they were not forced to wear burqas. You can argue that with me all day, but it won't make a bit of difference.

Yeah, but if you want to be rescued from a fire you better have an abaya handy.

Gee, we've mischaracterized the Saudi government so awfully here. We just had no idea what these people were like. Here I am thinking that you have to wear burquas there to be saved from fires, but all along it was abayas! Boy is my face red.

And you know why?

Because I've seen it firsthand and you haven't, so Google away my friend...

You make alot of absurd assumptions, Goofball. Must love the taste of your own feet.

[Adrian II]

Gee, we've mischaracterized the Saudi government so awfully here.

I'm waiting for the riots to break out. Death to Zionist paper cups!

[Big_John]

semantically, i believe goofball is correct. a burqa is more akin to an abaya and a full viel. an abaya, by itself, is pretty much just a long, loose dress.

i don't know about saudi arabia specifically, but in pakistan and iran, i frequently saw women walking around without viels. usually, they were obviously wealthier women. however, the majority of women i saw at least covered their hair.

[bmolsson]

Actually Israeli products and Israeli money are all over the middle east. The Israeli entrepreneurs, both jews and muslims, are experts in finding ways. I have worked with a Israeli company with production units in Gaza. Everybody and nobody knows.....

For the record, I am distribution several excellent Israeli products here in Indonesia and they are purchased by everyone, no questions asked.

[Proletariat]

You're like the Corrie ten Boom of Zionist paper cups!

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

You're like the Corrie ten Boom of Zionist paper cups!

That is too funny! I have to get some sleep.

[Del Arroyo]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=excoriating

As in, you just tore layers of untruth away before my eyes. Apparently this is a big word for you. Maybe you were afraid of getting a headache from looking it up before you decide to wax sententious.

Actually, Proletariat, "excoriating with insight" is a laughably wrong usage.

And the flutter over Israeli paper cups, while comical, is no more racist than US import bans on Cuban products (and IMHO, no more stupid).

As far as common perception of Arab culture, I can use my amazing powers of common sense to deduct that they are most DEFINITELY out of whack. Of course, if you've never been out of the country and learned about other cultures in depth, it is understandable that you would lack this BS-detector.

At the job I just quit there was a Yemeni waitress, who talked and acted superficially like an American and was much more similar to college-age Latin rich girls I've known than any Arab stereotype-- if anything she was a bit crazier. She has a brother who is also living in St. Louis, but she has her own car, and her own apartment-- I'll let you fill in the blanks here...

DA

[Proletariat]

And the flutter over Israeli paper cups, while comical, is no more racist than US import bans on Cuban products (and IMHO, no more stupid).

Yeah, no more racist at all. Have you ever been to Florida, Mr Seasoned Traveller?

Guess how they serve coffee there.

http://www.google.com/local?hl=en&hs...sa=X&oi=localr

I guess the US Govt will be purging the entire state of Florida soon.

(That's why you see loads of Israeli's on tire rafts heading for Saudi, right?)

[Adrian II]

And the flutter over Israeli paper cups, while comical, is no more racist than US import bans on Cuban products (and IMHO, no more stupid).

You have definitely never been to Saudi Arabia. If you had, you would know what racism is. Ask your Yemeni waitress, your Filipino shopkeeper, ask a Saudi Jew. Oh wait, there are no Saudi Jews -- would that be because of the racism?

"The Jew closes himself, refuses to abandon its bygone language, its tradition and customs, in order to become an isolated phenomenon. But since the modern societies in the west are zealous about this extinct phenomenon, it enables the Jew to do what he does, and to always find someone who protects him and helps him, even if it means the annihilation of all of a people in order to take its place."

Saudi government daily, July 11, 2002

It is disappointing that smart people like Goofball and you refuse to see oppression, racism and backwardness when it flies in your faces. Apparently you don't care. I suppose as long as Saudi Arabia is a western ally, we are going to have to put up with this and see people celebrate oppression under the name of 'cultural difference'.

[Leet Eriksson]

After the death of king Fahad, saudia is more open, but they still support the palestinians 100% thats means everything isreali related is not liked, but i have to stress, the Saudi government still deals with Isreal secretly, for example their main telecom company uses technology bought in isreal, including internet filtering products that blocks isreali websites.

You heard that right.

About the women, i been to saudia arabia multiple times, and goofball is correct, women are allowed to reveal their faces, the burqa is not forced by the government, its either by their own free will or their husbands. But its getting more "opener" as we speak.

[Redleg]

It is disappointing that smart people like Goofball and you refuse to see oppression, racism and backwardness when it flies in your faces. Apparently you don't care. I suppose as long as Saudi Arabia is a western ally, we are going to have to put up with this and see people celebrate oppression under the name of 'cultural difference'.

What's really sad about the Saudi mentality concerning other cultures - is that if all the "other" cultures were to pack up and leave Saudi Arabia - the economy of the country would collaspe - since it is primarily these "other" cultures that do much of the work. Or at least that was my personal observation of the country in the 1990's.

[Adrian II]

What's really sad about the Saudi mentality concerning other cultures - is that if all the "other" cultures were to pack up and leave Saudi Arabia - the economy of the country would collaspe - since it is primarily these "other" cultures that do much of the work. Or at least that was my personal observation of the country in the 1990's.

My observations in 1979 and 1988 were that without the foreigners there would be no culture whatsoever in Saudi Arabia. A culture of death maybe, if you stretch the meaning of 'culture'.

[Leet Eriksson]

Both redleg and AdrianII define culture, as i didn't quite understand.

Saudia Arabia is not a Multi-cultural country.

[Redleg]

My observations in 1979 and 1988 were that without the foreigners there would be no culture whatsoever in Saudi Arabia. A culture of death maybe, if you stretch the meaning of 'culture'.

Personally I think Saudia Arabia would collaspe in weeks if it was not for all the guest workers in that country. And I say "guest" worker baiting very painfully on my tongue since some things that are done to insure they remain in the country during their "guest" working period I find very troubling. Like the holding of the individual's passport. I don't know if Saudia Arabia still does that - but they did indeed to it for a time.

[Adrian II]

(..) the burqa is not forced by the government, it's either by their own free will or their husbands.

Their husband's, most likely. Saudi women are chaperoned in public, they have no right to move or speak freely, so how would you know? Frankly, the excuses for Saudi oppression and backwardness in this thread remind me of pre-1991 South African racists telling me they just did things 'differently' there and blacks really enjoyed living in their 'historic homelands' etcetera. How blind can you get?

[Redleg]

Both redleg and AdrianII define culture, as i didn't quite understand.

Saudia Arabia is not a Multi-cultural country.

culture in the way I am using it could also be taken for race. Since what Saudi Arabia does is not only based upon what ethnic group the people come from - but what culture they are also from.

For instance I watched some Pakistan workers being treated in a manner by the Saudi Police that was racist.

[Adrian II]

Both redleg and AdrianII define culture

Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt. Who's the odd man out in the picture?

[Leet Eriksson]

Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt. Who's the odd man out in the picture?

To me its Iran.

[Adrian II]

To me its Iran.

Come on man, you know the region so well... every Arab taxi driver or Farsi bazari will tell you the Saudis are a bunch of rude, illiterate yokels who struck it rich. And so they are.

[Leet Eriksson]

culture in the way I am using it could also be taken for race. Since what Saudi Arabia does is not only based upon what ethnic group the people come from - but what culture they are also from.

For instance I watched some Pakistan workers being treated in a manner by the Saudi Police that was racist.

This might as well be an isolated incident, as far as i know, some pakistanis, indonesians and other non-arabs also have saudi citizenship.

[Leet Eriksson]

Come on man, you know the region so well... every Arab taxi driver or Farsi bazari will tell you the Saudis are a bunch of rude, illiterate yokels who struck it rich. And so they are.

I won't deny that, the saudis have their share of rude people, particularily the richer saudis (shieks, princes princesses), of course they are raised in a pampered and spoiled environment and if they didn't have a plebe to order every 5 minutes they would die of stroke. BUT they hardly represent the saudi population, they are a minority. I have been to Mecca, Medina, Jeddah, Riyadh and other places I have met friendly, generous and well educated saudis, and beleive me Saudia Arabia might not be well off right now in the democracy department they are taking steps towards that direction, and they are getting more open every year.

[Big_John]

Frankly, the excuses for Saudi oppression and backwardness in this thread remind me of pre-1991 South African racists telling me they just did things 'differently' there and blacks really enjoyed living in their 'historic homelands' etcetera. How blind can you get?

what are you talking about adrian? where in this thread did anyone make an 'excuse' for saudi 'backwardness'? you're getting ahead of yourself adrian, and you're setting up strawmen with statements like the above and the below.

I suppose as long as Saudi Arabia is a western ally, we are going to have to put up with this and see people celebrate oppression under the name of 'cultural difference'.

it's great that you're all pisces and vinaigrette about this, but bring the histrionics back down to earth, my friend.

[Adrian II]

what are you talking about adrian? where in this thread did anyone make an 'excuse' for saudi 'backwardness'?

Excuse me? A fine example would be Goofball's remark that Canada and the U.S. have dress codes similar to that of Saudi Arabia. You seem to read only innucuous comments where in fact people are making lame excuses for what is a horrible regime. Faisal excluded, as usual. I bow to his superior knowledge.

[Bartix]

I dont believe you all take an example of rampant anti racism and make fun of it. You should be condemning these actions. Ah but its Israel. Thats fair game.

Anti racism is wrong?

Saudi society is horrible, oppressive, racist, totalitarian religious monstrosity. And great US ally.

I think Israel has bigger trouble than some one buying paper cups and then not using them.

I think also greater acts of evil committed in Saudi than boycott of disposable beverage container.

Paper cup incident shows Saudi being silly, other things show cruelty of beyond belief.

[Goofball]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=excoriating

As in, you just tore layers of untruth away before my eyes. Apparently this is a big word for you. Maybe you were afraid of getting a headache from looking it up before you decide to wax sententious.

Wow. Somebody really likes their new thesaurus. Your posts in this thread remind me of the Friends episode where Joey used a thesaurus extensively to write a letter and ended up signing his name "Baby Kangaroo Tribiani."

You make alot of absurd assumptions, Goofball. Must love the taste of your own feet.

Since several individuals who have direct experience with the region have now confirmed what I have been saying from the beginning, I would think that you are the one with a yap full of Converse.

It is disappointing that smart people like Goofball and you refuse to see oppression, racism and backwardness when it flies in your faces. Apparently you don't care. I suppose as long as Saudi Arabia is a western ally, we are going to have to put up with this and see people celebrate oppression under the name of 'cultural difference'.

A2, it appears that you are trying to create a dispute where there isn't one. My point from the beginning has not been that the Saudis are not misogynistic oppressors of women; they are. I have acknowledged that several times in this very thread, if you care to read my posts.

My point has simply been that it appears that many people believe the entire Arab world is characterized by a single culture, and that is not the case. There are many differences between cultures in the region. I brought up the point originally as the equivilant of a "color piece" meant to be of a bit of interest, but mainly as fluff, in keeping with what had been the prevailing theme of the thread.

For whatever reason, you and Prole have decided to set up the ridiculous strawmen that "Goofball is blind to Saudi oppression of women" and , more recently, "Goofball does not care about Saudi racism against Jews."

As to the former, it's simply not true. As I said, read my posts in this thread. I know the Saudis oppress women and do not dispute that.

As for the latter, just take a moment to peruse any racism thread, or any Israel thread to see how I feel about racism in general and anti-semitism in particular.

Your accusations are sublime in their groundlessness.

[Big_John]

Excuse me? A fine example would be Goofball's remark that Canada and the U.S. have dress codes similar to that of Saudi Arabia. You seem to read only innucuous comments where in fact people are making lame excuses for what is a horrible regime. Faisal excluded, as usual. I bow to his superior knowledge.

so you just ignore statements like these?

Again, I am not trying to hold the Saudis up as paragons of female empowerment

At any rate, you're missing my point. Women in Saudi Arabia are definitely not treated as equals

the remark about nudity was in response to the curious line (of yours i guess?) that "saudi dress codes forbid any display of nudity". maybe that was a joke? maybe you didn't mean "nudity", but "skin"? in any case, instead of assuming that goofball is equating cut-offs and halter-tops with full-veiled abayas, why not give him the benefit of context?

maybe i'm being naive, but i yet see no reason to read goofball's words anything like what you want to see in them. you should no as well as anyone that reading motivations and mind-sets into 100-word forum posts isn't necessarily straight-forward.

[bmolsson]

Just a small note, in Islam, men are not to be nude as well. Really conservative muslims have beard and will never expose legs and arms. It's also custom to wear something on your head.

I believe that the dress code issue is a bit blown out of proportion here. We have to remember that a woman is not allowed top less in the middle of New York, while a man is free to be dressed that way......